Dispute this all you "TBM's" out there!!

Yesterday on the Mormon Recovery Board, see the link on the right hand side, somebody named HTBO, made a great list of things that "TBM's" should have to answer for and have responses to. Link Anyway, some "TBM" took issue with the list in general and not with anything on the list, so I decided to help him out a little by posting some hard core indefensible information, right out of the "Official Church History" volumes and "The Journal of Discourses" and of course asking for an answer. He wanted HTBO to rephrase one of the questions, so I took the liberty of rephrasing it which of course he didn't respond to. He actually didn't respond to a single thing that I said or answer one question that I posted. Maybe he's off researching now like I told him to do and he has discovered the truth. One can only hope, right?

That's why the Church tells "TBM's" to stay away from people like me and places like this and Mormon Recovery or any of the links on my blog, because they may just discover the hoax. That's another reason the Church hates to hold courts with scholars if it can be avoided because they don't want the Stake High Council or maybe even the Stake President discovering the truth. For example in the recent Simon Southerton court, he was forbidden to talk about his book and DNA and the Book of Mormon or the court would be ended immediately. Instead, they went after him for adultery and ended up not being able to prove it, so they just exed him for an "inappropriate relationship". I'm so glad the he is appealing the decision, thus giving the Church more bad publicity. They just expect everyone to bow their head in agreement and fear, even after excommunicating someone. You can see my other post that came from the help of Tal Bachman, regarding this and why we should excommunicate Joseph Smith along with Brigham Young and many others. It's never to late to make things right!!

Anyway, I just wanted to post a few things that I said to the "TBM." If anybody wants to read the whole thing, they can go to Mormon Recovery and look for "dispute this." There were many great responses in the whole thread. By the way, the name of the "TBM" is Jimbob, I think he's the guy from the Waltons....LOL!!


Here is my post #1:

Okay, here is one thing that Brigham Young said and it can't be disputed since it appears in the official Journal of Discourses. There are of course so many things that he said but here is just one. If anyone doesn't believe me, go to your local library and look them up. Also, there is an online link to the Journal of discourses for those that don't live in Utah. I have personally verified the following statement at my local library. Does this statement sound like a Prophet of God or an evil racist?

I welcome any "TBM" to justify the following statement:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).

I would love to see how someone justifies this statement without revealing themselves as a complete racist just like Brigham Young. I find this statement to be repugnant and sickening. This talk was made in the Tabernacle,in Salt Lake City, March 8, 1863. He ends the speech with the following words: May God bless everybody that wishes well to his kingdom on the earth. Amen.

This is but one statement of so many that Brigham Young and many others have made for which there is no justification if they were indeed men of God!!

Here is an online version of the Journals of Discourse:

Then of course, right of out Mormon History, volume 6, pages 408-409, I'm looking at it right now, you have Joseph Smith boasting that he is greater than Jesus Christ himself. He said the following:

God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil—all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.

Then of course on page 411, History of the Church, volume 6, he follows up his boasting with this gem:

Be meek and lowly, upright and pure; render good for evil, If you bring on yourselves your own destruction, I will complain. It is not right for a man to bear down his neck to the oppressor always. Be humble and patient in all circumstances of life; we shall then triumph more gloriously. What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.

I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. I labored with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience; and then I sent my brother Hyrum, whom they virtually kicked out of doors.

So, first, he says he's better than Jesus Christ and then secondly, he denies being a polygamist and this was in 1844. I guess if you are a "TBM" and believe that he was indeed greater than Jesus Christ and either wasn't a polygamist or it was okay to publicly lie about it, then you'll be fine with these statements. These statements are real, were made by Joseph Smith and are word for word. If you don't believe them, go to the Churches bookstore and buy yourself a copy of The History of the Church!! It is online as well and you can buy a copy volumes 1-7 for $59.99 and get educated.

Here is my post #2:

Official Joseph Smith History

18 My object in going to inquire• of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors• were all corrupt; that: “they draw• near to me with their lips, but their hearts• are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments• of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power• thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying• on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother• inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition• and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?

So what would the correct questions be?

Does it bother people of other religions that the Mormon Church and Joseph Smith state emphatically that they are the one and only true church on the face of the earth?

Does it bother people from other religions that the Mormons teach that they are "all wrong" and an "abomination" in his sight and "corrupt?"

Are those questions direct enough?

Of course, good ol' Hinckley lies when asked the question by Larry King and responds by saying that we want to take the good they already have and see if we can add to it. BS!! The Mormon Church teaches very clearly that every other religion in the world is false,corrupt and an abomination and this teaching goes back to 1820 in Mormon History. I should know, I taught this version of the First Vision for 2 years and thousands of times on a Mormon Mission. When we say we have the only truth that exists on the earth, we are telling everyone else they are completely screwed. We just tried to do it in a nice way but the meaning is the same!!

Here was Jimbob's response to everything that I said....notice, he doesn't address one thing that is pertinent to what I was saying. He is a typical "TBM". However, what he does discuss or mention, I also take care of in Post #3.

Jimbob's comments:
Perhaps you should flesh the dichotomy between GBH's comment and JS' scripture. I don't see them (at least as you've presented them) as mutually exclusive, let alone lying. Could you clarify?

While you're at it, could you tell me how this is exclusive to Mormon belief? I've never met anyone who believed in their religion, regardless of form, who didn't believe that it was the correct view of God and the universe. Same with Atheists and Agnostics. Everyone who definite views at all on this subject believes that their way of believing and living is the way that God (or the lack thereof) thinks is best. Is it that we actually came out and said it that bothers you?


Post #3

Well, let's see if we can all help Jimbob out!! He seems to be seeking the truth.

Honestly, if you are too programmed or confused and blinded to see the difference between what the "personage" said(Obviously they were twins and Joseph couldn't tell who was the Father and who was the Son) to Joseph vs. what Hinckley said to Larry King, then I guess there is no help for you.

Come on, lets be serious. You see no difference? Really? Let see, Joseph said that the personage said the following; "I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt."

Now lets take a little look at exactly how that conversation went with Larry King:

Larry King: Louisville, Kentucky, with President Hinckley. Hello.

CALLER: Hello, this is Hugh Elgen (ph), and my question is to Mr. Hinckley. If I just read the Bible, the Old Testament, the New Testament, and preach out of it, is that incomplete -- in other words, do I need to read the Book of Mormon and preach it as well, or could I just get by on the Old and New Testament?

Gordon B. Hinckley: As you read the Bible, you will find the statement: "In the mouths of two or more witnesses shall all things be established." That is a biblical statement. The Bible is a witness of the divinity of Christ. The book of Mormon, we assert, is also a witness of the divinity of Christ. And those two, hand-in-hand, become two voices, speaking in declaration of the divinity of the Lord.

Larry King: So you should refer to, and read from three books?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Three books: Old testament, New Testament and the Book of Mormon.

Larry King: That's three books, right?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Yes, yes, yes.

Larry King: When someone only preaches the New Testament, are they in error?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Oh, I don't know they're in error. They're going as far as they feel disposed to go.

Larry King: And the Old Testament as far as they feel disposed to go?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Yes.

Larry King: And you're saying to them, bring your faith with you, right?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Sure.

Larry King: You're not saying, leave your Catholicism.

Gordon B. Hinckley: I say this to other people: you develop all the good you can. We have no animosity toward any other church. We do not oppose other churches. We never speak negatively of other churches. We say to people: you bring all the good that you have, and let us see if we can add to it.

So lets see, Hinckley doesn't feel that other people in other Churches are in error when they just preach out of the New Testament? Also, he isn't asking them to leave their Church. Really? wow!! They are just going as far as they feel disposed to go, okay, got it.

Just remember, according to Hinckley, they aren't in error at all. Now he says, "I say this to other people: you develop all the good you can. We have no animosity toward any other church. We do not oppose other churches. We never speak negatively of other churches. We say to people: you bring all the good that you have, and let us see if we can add to it."

Let's break that statement down a little bit. We have no animosity toward any other Church, we do not oppose other Churches. Really? Now I'm confused because I could have sworn that the "personage" said, "I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt."

So either Hinckley was being dishonest and lying or the doctrine from the "personage", that the Church has taught for 175 years including the two on my mission, has changed. Help us out there Jimbob. You see, the problem is that when you don't have the truth or the facts on your side, you are pretty screwed which is where the Mormon Church and apologists like yourself are finding themselves.

Why didn't Hinckley take that opportunity on national TV to confirm to the world what the "personage" said to JS? That all Churches are abominations, wrong and that the preachers are all corrupt. What was he so afraid of? Be honest for once!! Truth is truth right? Why would he chose to cover up the most important part of Joseph's First Vision which in turn led to the Church having to be restored?

I just noticed something that Joseph Smith says after that, he says, When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven.

Yeah, he found himself lying(literally) and on his back, looking up into heaven.....I just thought that was funny. He forgot the comma, kind of like the Book of Mormon. Personally, I think he must have been completely wasted or drunk when all this happened thus he had no strength and had to lean against the fireplace when he got home. LOL!!

By the way JimBob, I still waiting for your defense of your beloved and worshiped Prophet Brigham Young. Do you agree with his statement that I posted above? I sure hope not!!

Post #4-This is my response from today when somebody named "The Test", thanked me for my first post. I was just going to say your welcome but soon discovered that I had a lot more to say and continue on with the whole theme. I just feel so strongly about the Mormon Churches sins and their apparent refusal to even say that they are sorry. Anyway, here it is:

Hey no problem "Test." I was just getting a little sick of this "TBM" and many others, such as one of my good friends and their stupid arguments that they are making. If you look further down, he responded but not to my questions about what BY and JS said. He only wanted to talk about Hinckley and the more good BS from Larry King. Of course, why would he want to address the "real questions" when there are simply no answers. I have yet to hear any "TBM" or any so called apologist respond to these things. I'm sure somebody has but I just haven't read it yet. I'm going to talk about what BY said, but I find Joseph Smith boasting, right out of "Official Church History" that he is greater than Jesus and not a polygamist to be pretty damning as well. I'll post more about JS some other time.

I actually got my die-hard "TBM" friend to say that would bother him greatly if Joseph Smith actually said that, but he was sure that he didn't and would never say something like that because he was a man of God. I showed him the proof and have yet to hear back from him.What a surprise!!
He's actually convinced that anything negative against the Church has either been forged or changed by an Anti-Mormon and couldn't possibly be true.

He said that he would "actually have to enter into the Churches vault and see it for himself and even then, he couldn't be sure." See what we are dealing with here and what the Church has created? I asked if buying it from Deseret Book might suffice and he then said that, "yeah, that might work." Now, this is a guy with a very open mind, able to talk about anything, except the Church possibly being false. Anyway, like I've said, I have yet to hear back from him. I wish him luck on getting into the vault. According to his "TBM" brother, they won't have a problem letting him in...LOL!! Any member can go there whenever they want to do research.....yeah right!! Anyway, on to what I wanted to talk about.

How could you possibly find a way to justify killing black people if they marry white people and white people for mixing with the seed of Cain. It appears from that statement that he would be justified in killing both people, right? He would have to kill the black and the white for mixing, in order to clean up the situation, you know the whole "blood atonement" thing would kick in, thus justifying the murders and showing others what would happen to them if they did it. It would just be another one of his object lessons which he was know for regarding the "blood atonement."

Also, notice that it was "death on the spot", no questions asked, no trial, nothing, just instant death for mixing with the seed of Cain. Wow!! I mean how could anyone say that this evil racist piece of trash was inspired of God let alone a Prophet chosen of God. He was a vile human being of the worst kind and that's just one statement that BY made.

I could go on all day long with the BS that spewed out of his mouth and over the pulpit in the Salt Lake Tabernacle. There is no question that BY hated black people and he made no secret about it, after all, they were the seed of Cain, a dirty, loathsome people in his eyes and many others in the Church.

But then when you consider that according to the Mormon God, God himself is a complete racist, not allowing blacks to have the Priesthood until 1978, then I guess we can better understand why his Personal oracle, Prophet, Seer and Revelator, would also have to be a racist. After all, God would remove him if he led the people astray. Give me a break!!

Also, along those lines, the Church has never explained why it was that black women couldn't enter into the temple until black men got the Priesthood? Why were they also punished for Cains transgression? What did the black men not being able to have the Priesthood, have to do with them entering the temple? So it wasn't against just black men, it was against all blacks, men and women!! What's up with that? I guess women do get the Priesthood after all? I would love to hear someone ask Hinckley that question....I can hear his response now....."I don't know, I don't know....that's in the past..it was their interpretation.....little flecks of history.....I was just in Africa, we just built a temple there.....the people love us..blah blah blah!!"

Why hasn't the Church ever come out and said, "we are sorry, BY was a Racist." How can they not say they are sorry for all of the racist statements that were made by Prophets and Apostles? Instead, they blame it all on God, it's his fault. It was all in his time, they had no control over what was said or taught or when blacks got the Priesthood. Good thing President Kimball prayed about it, man, can you imagine the Church today banning blacks, it would be a PR nightmare.

Also, it had nothing to do with the people in Brazil that were being baptized and given the Priesthood before the Church found out that they had black heritages from Africa. What would God do if these awful black people entered into his holy house, even if they had 1/10 black blood? I guess it would defile the "House of the Lord." There was just a literal crisis in the Church regarding Brazil and something had to be done and fast!! Can everyone see just how evil and unbelievable these teachings and beliefs were?

They feel like giving the Blacks the Priesthood took care of all past sins regarding the "race" issue but it didn't. Building a new temple in Africa doesn't take away the sting of what BY said. Do you think those Africans waiting in line, that most likely don't have Internet access, know what BY, other Prophets and Apostles have said regarding specifically, "the African race." Not a chance in hell they know!!

They will always be considered a racist Church until they say three simple words, "we are sorry." Is it really that hard? Here's the problem, if they do, they are admitting that BY wasn't inspired along with many others and basically it is a can of worms with long lasting implications that help to prove and show the Church to be a complete uninspired, racist fraud. So, will they ever apologize? The answer is no!! They can't afford to!!

I hope that I'm wrong, the black people from before and now deserve an apology, but I just don't see it happening, ever!! To date, there has only been one black GA/Seventy and he was released in 1995. Here is is profile:

All we have to do is open the Ensign from this past May and look at the GA page. That shows us all we need to know, not one black person, not one. Only in Mormon land could someone find a way to justify racism and blame it all on God. The stupidity and lack of any common sense just goes on and on and on........

Anyway, that was it but I have much more to say about all of these things, so look for many more posts on the lives and times of these two evil and repulsive men that lived nothing by lives of dishonor and lies and justified it all in the name of God!! They are the evil two headed snake that started this whole mess known as Morminism. They were about as inspired as the weeds growing in my garden.

David A. Bednar, Take A Bow, You Are Officially Crowned "The Kiss Ass Of The Century!!"

Lets take a closer look at our new junior Apostle. First of all there is a new Joseph Smith site that the Church has launched to tell all the world what a wonderful, monogamous man and Father he was.(In the search box, simply type POLYGAMY and report back HONESTLY how many items turn up...IT'S ZERO FOLKS!!) I'll be doing another post on this but as I just mentioned and proved...not one single mention of Polygamy or any of his other 32 or more wives!!

Not one mention of Joseph Smith struggling with Satan before the Father and Son appear changing the "official version" of the First Vision one more time. Well, all of the Apostles and First Presidency gave their testimony regarding Joseph Smith and here is the first line of Bednar's testimony: "As one of the weakest of the weak, I testify that God lives."

This is the same guy who kissed ass all the way to the top by naming a building at BYU Idaho after Gordon B. Hinckley?! Next thing you know, he's an apostle!! Coincidence? I think not!! Fact or Fiction? Sorry to say, it's all true!! He's bold and strong, does something that's never been done before, but he's one of the weakest of the weak?!! He's an Apostle of God, a special witness of Jesus Christ but he's one of the weakest of the weak?!! Whatever dude!!

Then he gives a ridiculous talk at BYU about the whole "two earrings" commandment by Hinckley. Yeah, it was only Hinckley's opinion but now, thanks to losers and kiss asses like Bednar, it's like a commandment, a revelation from God. In the same ridiculous speech, he tells the story of that guy who really loved that girl, thought he might even marry her but she wouldn't take out the second earring so he dumped her. He actually said that Gordon B. Hinckley was pleading with women to remove that second earring. Pleading, really?!! He made a simple statement of opinion, there was no pleading or revelation. It's all about power and control!! What a joke!!

But, then he says, "it wasn't ever about the earrings", it's about obeying the man named Gordon B. Hinckley, a "living oracle", Prophet, Seer and revelator. It's about obeying the little things so that you'll obey the big ones in the mind control cult!! The same man that couldn't detect that Mark Hoffman was a murderer, forger?!! Doesn't know anything about anything. Doesn't know if God was once a man or if the Church even teaches that? Doesn't know why people are gay or if they are born that way or not? Doesn't know why Blacks couldn't have the Priesthood? Never saw that Tsunami coming, did he? But he had Larry King's genealogy ready for him like the night before the Tsunami hit. Good thing God communicates to Gordo the important stuff and that we have stupid kiss asses like Bednar to back him up. Here's a link to the BYU talk for those that haven't had the "privilege" to listen to it:

Audio Link

Text Link


MP3 File


Here is the part of the talk that I'm referring to:

Sister Bednar and I are acquainted with a returned missionary who had dated a special young woman for a period of time. This young man cared for the young woman very much, and he was desirous of making his relationship with her more serious. He was considering and hoping for engagement and marriage. Now this relationship was developing during the time that President Hinckley counseled the Relief Society sisters and young women of the Church to wear only one earring in each ear.

The young man waited patiently over a period of time for the young woman to remove her extra earrings, but she did not take them out. This was a valuable piece of information for this young man, and he felt unsettled about her nonresponsiveness to a prophet’s pleading. For this and other reasons, he ultimately stopped dating the young woman, because he was looking for an eternal companion who had the courage to promptly and quietly obey the counsel of the prophet in all things and at all times. The young man was quick to observe that the young woman was not quick to observe.

Now before I continue, I presume that some of you might have difficulty with my last example. In fact, this particular illustration of the young man being quick to observe may even fan the flames of controversy on campus, resulting in letters of disagreement to the Daily Universe! You may believe the young man was too judgmental or that basing an eternally important decision, even in part, upon such a supposedly minor issue is silly or fanatical. Perhaps you are bothered because the example focuses upon a young woman who failed to respond to prophetic counsel instead of upon a young man. I simply invite you to consider and ponder the power of being quick to observe and what was actually observed in the case I just described. The issue was not earrings!

A Prophet’s pleading? Are you kidding me? This Bednar character is one of the biggest kiss ass losers in the 12. He will do anything for Gordo, say anything, etc. I knew guys like this on my mission. We have so much to look forward to with this guy. I'm sure since he is only 53 and like 10 years younger than anyone else, he plans on being the Prophet someday but for now, kissing Hinckley's ass up one side and down the other will suffice. Keeping in mind that these jerks know the truth, and are basically being paid off(with their living allowances) to keep up the charade, perpetuating a fraud and we are supposed to think that he is really being humble?!! His statement is ironically true....he is the weakest of the weak!!

Whether he meant it that way or not, whether he was just trying to sound humble or referring to the Apostles and First Presidency, it doesn't change the truthfulness of the statement. Actually, he is the most pathetic of the pathetic, just like the rest of the Apostles and First Presidency!! For now, he just wants everyone to assume that he is this humble, very meek and weak man as people bow down to him and roll out the red carpet with his new calling as "Mormon royalty" while at the same time, telling women how many earrings they are allowed to wear.

He reminds me of a Mission President when a Seventy shows up, like a little lapdog. Give him a few years and he won't be pretending to be humble anymore!! He knows that if can simply outlive everyone else, he will indeed one day be the man with the checkbook and the man that all "TBM's" worship, stand-up for and praise in song, as the Prophet of God!!

Samuel the Utahnite

A BYU Professor Once Again Helps To Prove The Book Of Mormon and The Church Are Frauds!!

Is this guy for real? My guess is that he must have a gotten a big fat check from Hinckley himself!! Nobody could be this dumb or blind, could they? To actually say that "the archaeological and geographical evidence support The book of Mormon to the same degree and for the same reasons that they support The Bible" has to be one of the most laughable statements of the century!! I couldn't believe what I was listening to!! I just honestly don't believe that a man would put his intelligence, career and reputation on the line unless he had to or was forced to. If he really truly believes the ridiculous claims in this speech, then frankly, I feel very sorry for him. Here is that link so that everyone can listen to the speech for themselves-**Warning**-not for the intellectual types:

Link to talk:

Where exactly is he getting his information from? To say that "Moroni could show up today, in front of congress, with the golden plates in his hands, the sword of Laban and the Liahona in hand and they would still reject him", is ridiculous!! It would be an amazing thing if Moroni showed up since he never really existed!! However, if he did show up and we could actually see the plates, analyze them and see what Joseph Smith supposedly translated, it would basically prove the Church true and everyone would be joining. He says that, "even a room full" of Book of Mormon artifacts wouldn't be believed. How about just one?!! Plus, I'd love to get a good look at that "sealed portion"...lol!!

Now, we know that will never happen because there is no evidence or proof that The Book or Mormon is "real", rather a work of fiction by Joseph Smith and his demented yet very creative mind. Who cares how many languages it has been translated into and how many copies have been printed. Does that prove anything? It just proves how diligent the Church is with filling the world with a book of fiction, claiming it to be the word of God, divinely translated by Joseph Smith.

He says that the charges against The Book of Mormon are serious and deserve response. He then says something very interesting, describing it as the "anti-Mormon" approach; "if Joseph Smith made the book up, then it's peoples did not exist, it's events did not happen and there should be no trace of them anywhere!!" BINGO!! Boy, he hit the nail on the head and didn't even realize it!! Then again, maybe he does know it if he's on the payroll.

Before that he said that if you "can prove the existence of Zarahemla, then the validity of the rest follows." So where is it? Not Mayan or Olmec places....where are the ruins of Zarahemla and the Nephites and Lamanites? What the hell is "reformed Egyptian?" It doesn't exist!! Where are all of these swords, breastplates, shields, helmets, clubs, bows, arrows, etc? There should literally be millions if not tens of millions of these items, along with bones right in and all around the Hill Cumorah!!

What an amazing discovery that would be!! You would think that The Church, sitting on all that evidence, would just open up the Hill Cumorah and show the entire world but instead they just keep it to themselves? Better to just try and get people to feel that "special feeling" than it is to show them the hard evidence and proof?!! I would be pissed if I was currently a missionary!! They have all this proof that would make my job so much easier and they refuse to help me out!! What a joke!! The truth is and everyone knows it, is that if they had the proof, they would be showing it over the pulpit at General Conference and have all of their artifacts traveling all over the world. Hell, the GA's might even be wearing it while they gave their talks and set up displays of it behind them, why not? Are you kidding me? The Church wouldn't miss a chance to charge $10 or $20 a head to get into their "Book of Mormon exhibition." It would be big money!! Then they could have the missionaries waiting at the end to teach each person and family and then have a baptismal font waiting outside for the mass baptisms!! LOL!!

Then he says something that to me is even more shocking and revealing, something that Hinckley has said various times as well. He says, "if after a reasonable time of searching, material evidence is not found, then The Book of Mormon would be shown to be imaginary and by implication, Joseph Smith would be exposed as a liar and The Mormon Church unveiled as a hoax." Then he explains that "The Book of Mormon is the keystone of "Mormonism" and that if you can destroy that stone, all the rest that it supports, will come crashing down."

He sums up his talk with a "wonderful" quote from Hinckley basically saying that we shouldn't worry ourselves with external, archaeological proof, rather the proof that The Book of Mormon is true lies within the book. He says that those who have read it and had the spirit to confirm its truthfulness, know that it is true. So once again, throw out any physical evidence, turn off your brain, reality, history and just get that "special feeling" and that's all you will ever need. So why do they keep trying to find archaeological proof to correlate the history of The Book of Mormon? Why does Farms exist? Because, they are getting desperate and know that the "special feeling" just isn't working anymore for a lot of people. They know they won't ever find anything, but if people think they are still looking, then all is well in Zion!! It's all so magical, mystical and such a mystery, isn't it?!! Oh yeah, and it is wonderful!!

Is it just me or does the Prophet and people like John E. Clark seem to be basically toying with members and using reverse psychology? They must think, the Church can't be false if they would make such bold comments about it being false. I think their strategy is "the best defense is a good offense." They figure if they bring it up before people start proving it to be false, then people won't give it a second thought because they would never bring it up if that was to really be the case. That's just my observation.

What is really getting on my nerves lately and in this talk, is the stupid jokes they make, that aren't even funny and the polite, lets just call it "Mormon laughter", that you only hear in Church, at a conference or a fireside, etc. It's just really annoying!! I used to be one of those "TMB's" with the stupid "Mormon Laughter" syndrome too. The man is talking about the possibility of Joseph Smith being a complete fraud and the Church being a complete hoax and then everyone is basically laughing about it with stars in their eyes. The things that everyone is laughing about aren't even funny, except in their little brainwashed and twisted society. It is truly amazing as I can see it so clearly now!! It is just another tactic they are using to relax everyone and take their minds off of what they just said. Basically, it is a distraction and it works like a charm!!

Now, I have a question!! It is so obvious that everyone appears to overlook it!! If Joseph Smith was truly a Prophet of God, translated The Book of Mormon by the power of God, could see and translate records in his mind that were still on the other side of the world, etc, talked to God the Father and The Son, saw angels all the time, prophesied about everything, then how in the world did he not have a clue where, exactly and precisely, The Book of Mormon cities were? How is that possible? He's a Prophet of God, right? He has to read a book about the Mayan ruins to be able to say, "see, here is the proof!!" He should have already written his own book if he was so divinely inspired. He didn't even have to go there, he could have just stuck his head in that hat, or just closed his eyes and been able to see everything and describe it in great detail, if he was truly a "Great Prophet", like Moses, Abraham, etc.

Now, take this argument and fast forward to today. They still don't have a freaking clue where anything is and it has been like 175 years since then?!! Why would they even need an expedition, ever? Why should there be any debate at all. You mean to tell me that every Prophet of God, starting with Joseph Smith all the way down to Gordon B. Hinckley haven't been able to pinpoint exactly and precisely, where the Book of Mormon took place? So much for being a Prophet, Seer and Revelator. There is a Prophet of God however, that gets revelations about two earrings in womens ears, pornography and gambling are evil and dangerous, no more homecomings or farewells for missionaries but at the same time, doesn't even know the doctrines of the Church, what it has taught for 175 years or where The Book of Mormon took place?

I was thinking the other day that maybe, just maybe, God took up to heaven, any and all evidence of The Book of Mormon, like he did the plates, sword of Laban, etc. He stole the bones, the helmets, breastplates, etc. He must have them in a special section of Heaven where even the people in Heaven can't go. After all, why show those that have passed on to the next life, wouldn't it be better to keep trying their faith too? We all know how much the "Mormon God" loves to try peoples faith and it would just be too obvious and easy if you could prove The Book of Mormon, right? But what about the promise in Moroni? The only way the Book of Mormon can be true is if God changed the Native Americans DNA and stole all Book of Mormon evidence. So, then, you have to ask yourself, why did he leave the Bible evidence for everyone to find? Obviously, the "Mormon God" doesn't care whether you can prove "The Book of Mormon" and "his one and only restored Church" as being true. That would be just too easy!! It is so obvious what is happening here!! Can you all see it?!!

Maybe it's just me but I don't even need solid proof anymore to be able to prove the Church and Joseph Smith as complete hoaxes and frauds, all I need is my brain and common sense!! The Mormon Church is indeed one of the greatest hoaxes and frauds that has ever existed upon the face of the earth!! First, lets celebrate the humble Prophet(who doesn't have a clue about anything) Gordon B. Hinckley's 95th birthday with a massive party, with great entertainment, where he was treated like a King, in his new $500 million + conference center!! Did I mention how humble he is? By the way, screw the missionaries who are sacrificing two years of their lives for you Mr. Hinckley and your fraud of a Church!! After all, we don't throw big parties, farewells or homecomings for Bishops, Stake Presidents or PROPHETS!! Now, let's celebrate Joseph Smiths 200th anniversary and raise a glass to the man that made it all happen, that started it all, the original Prophet of fraud, the one and only, Joseph Smith!!

Kim Clark, new BYU-Idaho President, compares Hinckley to Moses!!

The Headline is Hinckley over Harvard!! When the LDS Prophet phoned, Kim Clark headed to BYU-Idaho.

Tribune Link

There are some amazing quotes from the article showing how the Morg can even brainwash a man with 34 years at Harvard. This isn't a stupid man and even he is duped, or is he? I'm sure that he is a great man, mostly just looking out for his family. My opinion is that he knows easy street lies just ahead, meaning becoming an Apostle like Bednar did, that's why he really left Harvard. If Bednar went from President of BYU-Idaho straight to Apostle, why wouldn't he, after giving up a prestigious 34 year career at Harvard? Makes sense to me!! The only question that remains, is what will he do to really impress "the modern day Moses" in order to top Bednar's naming a building after Hinckley?

Then he will be living the easy life of the rich and famous with a shot at someday being the Prophet if he can out live Bednar, limos, private jets, flying all over the world, no financial worries ever again, 5 star hotels and fame lie just ahead. He would at least have a great shot of being in the First Presidency if not the Prophet. Who can blame the guy? He's just playing the game. It may have actually been the smartest move he's ever made. Here are some quotes from the article:

Getting a 34-year Harvard man to abandon one of the nation's most prestigious business colleges for an Idaho church school would seem to demand nothing short of divine revelation.

It came in the form of a phone call in May to Clark, a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, from Gordon Hinckley, the 95-year-old leader of the Mormons. Hinckley asked the economist to head Rexburg's Brigham Young University-Idaho, which just five years ago was a two-year junior college.

''You have to appreciate what this is like,'' said Clark, 56, of Hinckley's call. ''We behold him to be a prophet. Imagine yourself getting a call from Moses.''

''LDS people are pretty responsive to that sort of a direct call, a mission call, almost,'' said Lawrence Foster, a religious-history professor at the Georgia Institute of Technology in Atlanta.

''It doesn't matter to me what other people think about'' the decision to leave Harvard, Clark said. ''I'm pretty sure that if you and I have this conversation 10 years from now, people will know about BYU-Idaho.''

And Clark's move, viewed from inside the church, could be seen as a promotion: Some say this establishes Clark, a bishop, as a rising star. His predecessor, David Bednar, was named in 2004 to the Quorum of the 12 Apostles, a church governing body considered by Mormons to have the same authority as the 12 biblical apostles.

''If one were thinking for the church either about university matters or future ecclesiastical office, Kim Clark is clearly on the radar screen,'' said Philip Barlow, a Mormon and religion professor at Indiana's Hanover College.

''The church influences washes over, runs through, pervades everything we do,'' said Robert Wilkes, BYU-Idaho interim president.
Clark's decision has aroused much debate, even among church members. On an LDS-related Web site called ''Times and Seasons,'' some called Clark's move to largely Mormon eastern Idaho a wasteful sacrifice of church influence in the northeastern United States.

The church's education director, W. Rolfe Kerr, calls the BYU-Idaho presidency a ''paid job,'' not an ''ecclesiastical calling.''

Still, a request from Hinckley would be a difficult to refuse, church members say.

''If Gordon Hinckley called and said, 'What I need you to do is go work on the grounds crew at BYU-Idaho,' I would say 'Yes,' " said Paul Pugmire, president of the Rexburg City Council.

Yeah, yeah, if President Hinckley called me to clean the toilets at BYU-Idaho and lick the sidewalks for the next 5 years, it would be an honor, as if Moses himself had called me and asked me to do it. How could I turn it down? Wow!! Was Paul Pugmire serious? It must either be the hope of a "Church promotion" that motivates these guys or they are really just that brainwashed!! I'm just astonished that people would literally do anything for Hinckley. Now if Kim Clark truly isn't thinking about becoming an Apostle someday and is just being obedient to "Moses", or doing this out of duty, then it shows how Hinckley can just snap his fingers and even a 34 year Harvard man, will listen. I'm sure Hinckley loved being compared to "Moses." Just another reason for his ego to grow even bigger if that is possible!!

I guess this can help us understand the power and control that Joseph Smith had over so many people, especially all of the women that he married. That control continues on today through Hinckley and whoever is next. People will literally drop everything at a moments notice when Hinckley calls!! When they enter a room, everyone stands!! It is sick!! It is a cult!! It is truly a sad tale, very very sad!! I do sincerely wish Kim Clark the best, whatever his motivations or reasons for leaving Harvard are, after 34 years, for little Rexburg, Idaho.

It just doesn't seem like the kind of move that a man with his experience would make unless there was a big pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I'm sure that he's also taking a pay cut. Would BYU-Idaho pay what Harvard pays? Maybe, just maybe, they already promised him that he would be the next Apostle, now that would make more sense, wouldn't it?

Samuel the Utahnite

Is it hypocritical for a "true believing Mormon" to own a coffee shop?

I would say first of all yes it is hypocritical, according to the teachings of the Churches word of wisdom. Like one person mentioned that you can't get a Temple recommend if you drink coffee. Coffee, tea and alcohol are all equally evil according to the WOW. Why should you be selling something that would keep others out of the Lord's house? This post on the recovery from Mormonism site actually reminded me of a debate I had my "TBM" sister who said that there is nothing wrong with it. So, I asked, "it's okay to sell something, in a business you own, even though you can't partake of it?"

It will indeed keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom, right? Maybe someone is struggling with quiting coffee drinking to get into the temple and it just so happens that someone in the ward owns a coffee shop? Not exactly the example that one would want to set if they were true believing Mormons, right?

I'm just not sure how you teach the Word of Wisdom in Elders Quorum or in Sunday School one Sunday and then serve coffee on Monday. If this isn't hypocritical, I'm not sure what is. For the record, I could care less what people do and if they want to buy coffee and drink it, fine by me, but we are talking about "TBM's", "diehard's", God's anointed, not just any Joe blow, that's the difference and that's what we are talking about. I'm all for free agency but in the Church, it really doesn't exist, does it?

However, when you consider that Marriott's have hard-core pornos, alcohol, coffee and tea in their restaurants, mini-bars in some of their suites and Macey's Supermarkets here in Utah sell alcohol, tobacco, coffee and tea, well, I guess it's not hypocritical after all. Of course Macey's are closed on Sunday to "keep the Sabbath day holy." Larry Miller owns the Utah Jazz and the Delta Center and he serves alcohol at the games and most events yet he won't come to a game on Sunday to "keep the Sabbath day holy." What a hypocrite!!

I mean come on dude, you own the team, that plays on Sunday, people are buying alcohol in your building, watching your team on Sunday, but you can't even watch the game or be in the crowd? Remember when the Jazz were in the finals and he was in the locker room watching the monitor because he couldn't be in the crowd because it was Sunday. Give me a damn break!! Does he think that we are all stupid and blind? As long as you pay your tithing and are successful, frankly, the Mormon Church doesn't care where it comes from, obviously, right?!!

I had a Bishop that owned a video store with the soft porn R rated movies and the Non-rated soft porns. He had the violent movies that the Church says not to watch as well. I remember wondering how that was justified but it didn't seem to be a problem. I'm sure he paid nice tithing and he was the Bishop for 5 years!! Interestingly enough, he was one of the coolest Bishops I ever had. Everybody loved the guy!!

Also, the Church hasn't decided yet if they are going to allow alcohol to be served in their new billion dollar mall. Just the fact that it's on the table is all I need to know. So I would say, by following the example of well known Mormon's that pay their tithing who are buddy buddy with the hierarchy, and Marriott is an area authority, selling coffee would be just fine, especially if the Church green lights alcohol in their Mall restaurants. Here is the quote from the article about the Billion dollar mall project regarding alcohol:

And council members said the church wants the malls to be closed on Sunday - ZCMI Center already is - but it hasn't ruled out alcohol sales at planned restaurants.

"Their commitment is still nothing on Sunday," Saxton said.

As for the alcohol issue, "they are willing to recognize state law. That's all I'm going to say," she added.

One council member said the church would be spending close to $1 billion. On Thursday, church spokesman Dale Bills would say only that "gross costs are quite different than net costs. Estimates of net costs to the church and its partners continue to be in the range previously announced."

That was $500 million. Church officials maintain none of the mall money would come from members' tithing payments.


But like a "TBM" friend told me yesterday, they can't help but sell alcohol in their mall, it is state corporate law and they are bound by it and forced to do it. They are the victims and can't get out!! If they don't sell alcohol, they will be sued for discrimination!! Whatever dude!! If it was state law, it wouldn't be on the table still!! Also, I might suggest to anyone from the Church if they were "forced" to sell alcohol, sell the mall!! Be in the world but not off the world, like I was taught in Seminary, right?

Nobody is forcing the Mormon Church to buy malls, build luxury resorts and sell alcohol, etc. It is their choice, their free will and they need to be held accountable and to the same standards that the members are held to. If you own a business that makes you break the standards of the Church and you are the freakin Church, sell it baby!! The Church has no tolerance for us sinners and drinking alcohol will keep us from the temple and Eternal life so we should hold the Church to the same strict standards.

Let's raise the bar on the Church since they raised it on missionaries. Of course when you have the examples of Joseph Smith, the great Prophet, putting a bar in his house with Porter Rockwell as the bartender, (until Emma made him chose between her and the kids and the bar) and then Brigham Young opening the first bar in Utah, well, it gives a whole new meaning to "raising the bar."

Maybe the new standard of the Church, if they do indeed offer alcohol at their mall, will be, you can only get drunk on the Churches property, specifically at the mall, anywhere else and you'll be accountable. Of course, the fact that you can't even get a caffeinated drink anywhere on BYU campus or at a game is a little baffling, especially if they do indeed sell alcohol in the future.

The bottom line is and always will be,$$$ money, money, money, money, money .....money.....money $$$............To answer the question, yes, they sell their tokens for money, absolutely and in a heartbeat, for the highest price and as often as they can!! But don't you dare sell your tokens!!

When will the church abide by their Simon Southerton precedent, and excommunicate Joseph Smith posthumously for ADULTERY?

This is a post that was originally posted by Tal Bachman, my response and then his response to what I said. I normally will only be putting my opinions on here but when I find something this awesome by somebody, I will gladly post it. It is still posted over on exmormon.org if anybody wants to go read the whole thread. I couldn't have said it any better. I thought he hit the nail right on the head!!

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The spectacle of a church founded by a guy who had sex with over thirty women, not ONE of whom was his legal wife, excommunicating a guy like Simon Southerton for having an "innapropriate" relationship with a woman, is really grotesque, and is only further testimony to the blindness and hypocrisy induced by Mormon ideological fanaticism.

Joseph Smith did NOT "marry" his plural wives (many of whom were already married to other men) in accordance with "the law of the land"; he had sex with them in DEFIANCE of the laws of Illinois. By any definition, then, religious or legal, and even Mormon at that time, his actions constitute adultery. There is no way around this. When will he be posthumously excommunicated for this sin? Answer: NEVER, because Mormonism is his cult, and there is NOTHING that cult members could ever find out about their cult founder which would ever convince them to boot him out posthumously. My own mother told me that even if Joseph lied about all his stories, that "the church would still be true".

Besides, if adultery weren't enough to constitute an "inappropriate" relationship, what about him having sex with the 14 year old daughter of Heber Kimball? How "appropriate" is that? Joseph Smith was THIRTY NINE when he had ILLEGAL SEX with this frightened girl, a girl who later said she had been "deceived", since she had no idea that this "marriage" would ever entail sex, or prohibit her from marrying another man for time and all eternity. Is THAT "appropriate"? For cult members, YES. Joseph could have slit the quivering young Miss Kimball's throat and then eaten her, and Mormons would still take no posthumous action against Joseph Smith - because after all, "the church is true, the church is true, the church is true" (repeat ad infinitum).

Truly sick.

T.
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Hey Tal, I agree with every word you said. I think this is the best post yet. It is all so true and so unbelievable. I mean, to think that the Morg is worshiping this adulterers Birthday makes me physically ill. I went to the party and I'll return and report on that later. Joseph Smith was a monster!! He was an adulterer, child molester, wife stealing pedophile who prayed on the young and naive. He promised Eternal life in the name of God for sex. He was basically God's pimp. He destroyed many women, families and lives and his legacy lives on. It is very sad and also disgusting. He was complete scum!! As Mr. Hinckley would say, "so what?"

The sad thing is that I have already ran into a few "TBM's" that say exactly what you said, that the Church is still true even though Joseph Smith was a polygamist, etc, etc. The programming by the Morg goes several layers deep and all we can do is try to take off one layer at a time. I guess it took their whole life to be programmed so deeply so it will take time to deprogram them. They continue to destroy lives and families with their stances on masturbation, sex, gays, etc. It is just one lie after another. They don't care who they destroy!!

The Churches new "Joseph Smith Website" is the exactly what we are talking about and a complete joke. As we all know, not one mention of polygamy, just Joseph and Emma, two little lovebirds just as happy as can be. No mention that Joseph was about to be killed or slain by an angel with a sword. No mention from D&C 132 about God destroying Emma if she didn't go along with her little Joe's adultery. Not one mention of his other wives, children, etc. I guess that they don't matter.

Now I'm starting to really get pissed as the deceit just rolls on. The Morg truly knows no shame. Hopefully this pride, lying and deceit will one day cause a complete implosion of the Morg as we know it. One can only hope!!

Samuel the Utahnite

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Yeah Samuel - NO mention on that website of the bitter tears Emma cried over her serial adulterer of a husband, or of her comment, after finding out years after his assassination of just how prolifically Joseph had lied to her, that Joseph "deserved to die" for his betrayal! I mean, we're talking a seriously dysfunctional couple here.

Let's not forget, either, that it was JOSEPH SMITH who believed that Emma tried to POISON HIM AND MURDER HIM! Is THAT on the church website? That Emma was so distraught that, at least in Joseph's mind, she was guilty of ATTEMPTED MURDER?

What's the most insane of all is that you can actually read all about this sick, dysfunctional, stomach-churning garbage that I wish I had never even heard of, this completely abusive relationship, in books sold in the church's official bookstore! Both "Mormon Enigma" and "Mormon Polygamy: A History" are for sale there. At one point, Emma Smith was drafting anti-polygamy statements with her Relief Society counselors, completely unaware that her husband was secretly screwing both of them! And I actually sat in Ken Godfrey's institute class as a young man and listened to him talk about disgusting crap like this, and somehow managed to make it okay in my mind.

I don't think I'll ever live down having defended the church so often in public and private, on radio, in print, amongst friends. In the name of truth, I defended an organization which hates it, and assaults it at every possible opportunity, even smugly so, and then demonizes anyone (as it has from the beginning) who dare to take issue with the deception. Its behaviour is nearly sociopathic, perhaps just what you would expect from an organization whose founder seems to fit exactly the description of a sociopath: charming, winning, and completely unconcerned about who he has to hurt or defame to satisfy his lusts.

T.
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I had to add one more thing!! Here are a few comments from Polygamy Porter plus an addtional list of names of men that should also be excommunicated posthumously. I agree wholeheartedly with the comments and the list!!

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Invite the Mutal kids... lets posthumously excommunicate all of those sick bastards in the mormon past

Brigham Young
Heber C. Kimball
John Taylor
Wilford Woodruff
Lorenzo Snow
Joseph F. Smith
Heber J. Grant

Plus all of the men who practiced it.

The fact of the matter is polygamy was always against the law.

Therefore all who were engaging in the illegal extra marital unions were doing nothing more than cheating on their first wife, aka ADULTERY, FORNICATION... any under 18? CHILD RAPE..

Polygamy Porter

*Exclusive**Breaking News* What really happened to Richard Hinckley!! You won't believe it!!

***I just wanted to include this link to another very interesting post I wrote on the honest man, who was called by the Mormon God, Richard Hinckley, who is also the son of Gordon B. Hinckley, the current Mormon Prophet.***

It was reported by his wife Jane on KSL what really happened on that jet an hour and a half from Anchorage, Alaska. One of his exercise bands snapped and hit him in the right eye, rupturing his eyeball. He had to have emergency surgery in Alaska and they will wait 10 days to do surgery on him here to see how he's doing. They say that it is a very serious injury and that it may affect his eyesight.

Link:

Wow, my thoughts are first that God must have really been looking out for him and Pop. Secondly, how would it be to be exercising on a Private Jet, flying around the world with my Family. Maybe he was drunk? Maybe he was laughing so hard at the easy life, he wasn't paying attention? It must be that damn nepotism biting him in the ass or the eye!! Interesting isn't it?!! At least we know that the Church will take care of the bills and surgeries, so no worries there!! At least the Mormon God looks after his anointed in that regard!!

We also know that the Church will spare no expense and fly in the best doctor money and God can buy if that is what it takes to fix his eye. I in no way, take any pleasure in him getting hurt or wish any physical harm upon anyone. I'm sure that Seventy insurance will be kicking in meaning that God is looking out for them. Even if he didn't have personal insurance, do you think he'd be paying for the bills out of his own pocket? If a missionary gets sick on his mission, does the Church pay for all of the medical bills once they get home and indefinitely? They certainly didn't in my family when someone got sick and needed surgery.

Besides, if he loses eyesight in one eye, he should still have the other eye.right? It didn't hit him in both eyes. Jim McMahon lived his whole life with one eye and won the "Miracle Bowl", excelled at every level, including BYU and then won a Super-Bowl. My point is not that it's okay that he was seriously injured but that his life will go on and he can live the same quality as before if he does indeed lose his eyesight. I guess what I'm saying is that missionaries are seriously injured, shot and killed every year, so at least it wasn't life threatening. He's still alive and should have at least one good eye.

There has been much speculation about what had really happened to him, thanks to his wife, now we know. I wonder why the Church basically covered it up for two days and didn't want us to know the real truth and then we hear it from his wife? The good news is that his Papa is the Prophet, the big cheese, the seer and revelator so theoretically it won't matter if he loses his eyesight, right? His Daddy can just lay his hands on his head and heal him with no problem, just like Jesus did, since he is God's right hand man, his anointed. Oh wait, he doesn't actually know or talk to God, does he. He just gets that warm burning in the bosom or a thought randomly pops in his head. (Build a conference center-) Who said that? (as he looks all around) ooooooooooooooh!!

So lets hope that his bosom is really burning this time as he lays his hands on his son's head. This will be a true test of the Prophets lack of faith, knowledge and testimony. They must have taken off sometime after Daddy's big birthday bash. At least this happened after the big party, it would have been a shame if they had to miss that. Also, so Hinckley had nothing to do with his Son being called but then they take off together to Korea on Huntsman's or some private jet? I wonder how many other Seventies get to travel by Private jet with the big cheese himself? Is his Son getting special privileges? NO, it couldn't be, could it? Nepotism rearing it's ugly head? Hinckley fears that so much!! right? I guess it's all just a big coincidence that they were traveling together?!!

I was thinking, I would love to go for a fun trip on a private jet, lift some weights, etc, while flying to California or New York, maybe Korea. When is the last time you were able to lift weights or run while on an airplane. I haven't had that chance on American, Delta, Jet blue or United lately. Maybe we get up to walk to the bathroom or something unless you are flying around on a private jet like they are.


Maybe God told him in his mind, "Take your Son!!" So he was only obeying God and then Karma took over, who knows, but the whole thing is interesting. I never wish physical harm upon anybody but it is just an interesting way and place to hurt yourself. It could have just been some turbulence or something, who knows. Meanwhile Daddy headed on to Korea and now is in Taiwan so that people can worship him like the God he pretends not to be but knows he is. After all, He is a very humble man, he is...he said so himself but at the same time, can't wait for another big Birthday party in 5 more years. Sounds like a humble man to me, at the members and tithe payers expense of course.