***Update at the bottom of this post***Here is the post that I wrote over on Dr. Shades uncensored Mormon Discussion Board explaining this unexpected and unfortunate turn of events:
Mike Norton, you out there man? Infymus trashed us both....over at "A View From the Foyer." Well, mostly you as I only got a brief mention but here is what he said to start things off:
Quote:
I publish none of Norton's material, and don't even link to his site. Norton is free to do what he wants, but I find him to be more of an extremist. I will admit, however, that in the beginning, I did publish many of his items on the Mormon Curtain, but then I began to realize that his material just didn't fit. Even some of Samuel the Utahnite's articles I have cleaned out. Not because I'm censoring anything, I just felt the direction I wanted to go was more of real information and real life issues - not absolute rants. TBMS often see the pure rants and think that is all that Ex-Mormonism is about, and in many ways it can be, but does not entirely encompass it.
Mike Norton and Samuel not fitting in thread
Just for the record, I've been a big supporter and even defender of The Mormon Curtain and Infymus since last June or so, when I first found it, but no more. I'm going to demand that he remove EVERYTHING of mine as he "just doesn't fit in" to where I want my material posted any longer and I too, want to go in a different direction. He has at least 25-30 + posts that I have written currently posted on his sight, minus whatever he has seen the need to "clean out."
Anyway, the subject of you Mike continued on:
Quote:
Elder MonoMo said:
As far as Mike Norton goes, I love guys like him. There are far too few people with the balls big enough to take on a huge establishment and poke a stick in its eyes. Yeah he's extreme, but he's just hilarious. Who would have ever thought about doing a podcast of a Beehive House tour where he gives the Sister Missionaries a whole hell of a lot of CogDis?
You gotta hand it to him on creativity. The guy is creative.
Infymus:
I have a fear of incarceration and legal wrangling that keeps me on a different path. Mike does not seem to fear it and if you've seen a lot of his work, you'll see why. I found it amusing that his city council was going to throw him in jail for having a large sign in his front yard showing the casualties in Bush's "War on Terror". I never did follow up and find out if they actually threw him in jail.
I've seen his hired men on the street around Temple Square (as I walk around there twice a day) and they're more relaxed than some of the other street preachers.
I also found it rather amusing when he was booted from the RFM forums (I only recently archived and deleted that particular post on the MC), and when the LDS Corporation served him with legal papers for "trespassing". What? No flaming sword or lightening bolt? No, God works with his law-firm Kirton & McKonkie now.
I do have a link to his site "Joseph Lied" in my links section:
Joseph lied link
Hey, I thought he was bragging in the first part I posted, that, "I publish none of Norton's material, and don't even link to his site." I guess when he realized that some people like, respect and appreciate what Mike Norton does, so that they don't have to, he suddenly volunteers, "I do have a link to his site "Joseph Lied" in my links section", which fully contradicted his tough guy, "I don't post anything from him stance." I guess it just depends who Infymus is talking to at the moment, as to what his story is. Hey, that sounds like Joseph Smith, doesn't it?
Quote:
MoNoMo:
There are definitely many different camps of people who frustrate the spread of Mormonism.
There's the venomous Anti-Mormon street preachers spewing hate and waving the pictures of aborted fetuses, who's hidden agenda is pretty transparent, which makes them pretty ineffective at communicating their message.
Then there's the guys like Mike Norton, who are far more effective at getting their message out via the Internet and through attracting media attention and just generally being a real thorn in the side of the Morg.
Then there's all the different Internet forums, which provide a major source of information on Mormonism, both pro, con and in between.
Then there are people like you and many others in the DAMU, who I'd say are the most effective at presenting the other side of the Mormonism, you can't get through official channels. The meat. Facts , in clear & rational(unemotional)manner so that others can compare the two different sides and draw their own conclusion.
Then there's people like Kathy and others who offer practical advice for putting Mormonism behind you.
Then there are those who are out there publishing scholarly, objective works and scientific research on issues that shed light on the dark claims of Mormonism.
Some methods are more effective than others at communicating, but they all play a role in debunking the myths of Smith for people searching for serious answers to serious questions.
The ones I trust are objective, meaning that they do not start with a prejudiced conclusion and make everything fit that conclusion, unlike Mormon Apologists.
Infymus:
I believe this is the direction that I have been trying to take the Mormon Curtain. In the early days of culling I brought over a lot of interesting posts from Ex-Mormons who either had an axe to grind or they were venting frustration over their journey through Mormonism. I went through 15 years of Mormonism and now on the outside, I was angry and frustrated that I was lied to for many years. Even so, being out now almost five years that anger and frustration has largely subsided. I now look more for messages that are informative and contain information that will help readers make a more informed decision. I still hold dear a place for simple Recovery From Mormonism and have three large sections for that (soon to be four), but I now hold back on people simply making a statements without a lot of information to back it up.(Yeah, Like Norton and myself, because we never back up anything we say, we just rant like lunatics, right?) I've also been systematically going backwards through articles and removing those I don't think will aid in making good informed decisions.
I think in there somewhere, I have quite a few posts from you MoNoMo.
Here's the sad thing about this thread; this thread was actually about "Susan I/S asked me to post this in regards to Sara Hamblin's passing. She was Kathy Worthington's (of mormonnomore.com fame) partner for ~14 years, I believe."
Infymus felt the need to derail it completely when he just had to say, despite the circumstances, "Now, as for Susan I/S, she can go to hell in a hand basket for all I care." Infymus did say how sorry he was for Kathy and praised her, but then had to get his jab in at Susan....pretty sad if you ask me considering what the purpose of the thread was.
Then later, he claimed that he didn't want to derail the thread, after MoNoMo's comments and some others, when he said, "For the sake of the Foyer, I'd rather not turn this into a Susan bashing thread as it's not conducive to the topic at hand (ie. Kathy's partner passing away).
Good hell man, he's the one that started it, but have no fear, he continued on talking about her and then that's when he felt the need to bring up Mike Norton and myself. Infymus was not being sincere in his claims that he didn't want to "turn this into a Susan bashing thread" when he was the one that started it and then kept it going, plain and simple.
Oh yeah, but no more ranting on my site or negative posts without facts to back it up, because I'm going in a different direction now. Can you all see the hypocrisy here? This is ridiculous!! He is ridiculous!! Does he not even read what he writes? I think that telling SUSAN I/S to "go to hell in a handbasket", might just be that ranting that he is now so against.
I agree that Mike and myself are very passionate people and pissed off and Mike is certainly more daring than I, but I appreciate what he is willing to do. His site is fantastic, you know, the site that Infymus doesn't link to, but then does link to? Give me damn break!! It seems that Infymus has turned into RFM, in that he wants to be exclusive or something and that's unfortunate.
Also, notice that it was Mike and myself, that were singled out, not Steve Benson, or Tal Bachman, who are 2 of the bigger ranters there are. Some of Steve's stuff is educational although I don't like him or his attitude of bashing others needlessly and he is a huge ranter. Tal writes very amusing stuff, ranting stuff, that includes facts that he knows, but without links and scriptures a lot of the time to back it up. They are generally things that most of us in the Ex-Mormon community already know. Tal knows his stuff and is very sharp with great whit and humor to boot.
I have loved a lot of what Tal writes, a lot of it tongue and cheek, and I have learned a lot from him and have even posted some of his stuff on my blog. I also loved Tal's talk at the convention and I think he's a rather cool guy. Oh yeah, then you have Infymus himself, ranting like crazy about the Church, RFM, etc.
This is one of my favorite rants by Infymus, under the subject heading Infymus, that I guess he has to delete now, since he is anti-rants:
Quote:
Quit Calling Me Your Brother (or Sister, If It Applies)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted Aug 4, 2005, at 08:00 AM.
FILED UNDER: INFYMUS
ORIGINAL AUTHOR: n/a
ARCHIVED BY: Infymus
TOP
I framed my exit letter and I have it above my desk at home. I was reading through it again and noticed, "Dear Brother Infymus".
Ug.
I'm not your brother, Greg.
In fact, in my days of Mormonism I hated calling people brother and sister. It wreaked of cult. CULT CULT CULT. I just couldn't do it and so I never did and I cringed when people called me brother. UG!
And when I resigned, the Mormon ward had just received a new bishop. I never knew him. Three years later he pops by for a chat about my recent letter for ward directory name removal. Power suit and tie as usual - he stood there and called me Brother and told me how much he loved me.
UG! I just held my daughter in my arms and felt creeped out.
Don't call me brother...
Infymus.
So, here is the bottom line for me. In my opinion, Infymus can't be trusted, plain and simple. I personally wouldn't allow him to post any of your posts on his site, if I were you guys. First of all, even if he pretends to be your Email Buddy and you think everything is fine, that won't stop him from going somewhere else and stabbing you in the back and talking shit about you. This man obviously knows no loyalty, even to those that have been 100% loyal to him and even defended him and his non-sense with Susan I/S from RFM and Daniel Peterson.
Now, most of you know that I'm not a Daniel Peterson fan but maybe, just maybe, he was telling the truth about Infymus(AKA Michael Hoenie) and his character when he described the Email conversations that they had back and forth. I even wrote a post about this, once again defending Infymus and trashing Daniel Peterson(deservedly so) when he claimed that he wasn't paid by the Mormon Church to do what he does at FARMS.
Here is the link so that you can all read it and decide for yourself:
http://www.shields-research.org/Critics/Mormon_Curtain.htm
The part that stood out to me at the time, was right at the end where it claims:
Quote:
Additional Note: Infymus's last approximately eight (as of 12 Nov 2005) messages to Dr. Peterson were graphically sexual/insulting/demeaning in content. We are including one of subsequent messages that has been censored so that the public can see the nature of the character of Michael Hoenie, one of those who is a participant on the Recovery from Mormonism message board. We wonder why it is that as soon as these people leave the Church to what they claim is a higher plain of freedom in thought and lifestyle, so many of them immediately drop into the gutter. We have witnessed this time and again. This certainly suggests something about their new "better" way of life.
Michael Hoenie:
"So Dan tell me, when you get your fat bald [obscene] [obscene] [obscene] your [censored], and you're [obscene] her [obscene] [obscene] ... Do you call out your own name? I'll bet you do."
And the rest of Mr. Hoenie's obsessive continuing messages (with no response from Dr. Peterson) have continued in a similar vein. And then he and his cohorts have the nerve to say that Dan is a name caller.
Note for Michael Hoenie, in response to what he has posted on his blog: He appears to have difficulty reading English. It was I (Stan Barker) who praised Dr. Peterson, not Dr. Peterson praising Dr. Peterson. His assessment doesn't even make any sense!
The sad thing is guys, that I actually went into my Mormon Cog Dis, that I guess is easy to fall back into, and I figured that Daniel Peterson must have been lying, because Infymus wouldn't say those things. Wow, was I dumb ass. We don't know for sure if he did or didn't say these things, but I'm more inclined to believe he did, now that I've seen a little bit more of his character personally. Just breaking it down as I see it, just like Mormonism and the evidence seems to be piling up, doesn't it?
I believe that if Infymus is trying to help recovering Mormons, and behaving like this behind the scenes, he is hurting us, all of us, not helping us. To pretend publicly to be this nice, "non-ranting" guy, with a wonderful site to help people, but then making fun of people's appearance and wife and their sex life, mixed with plenty of expletives, probably isn't too affective. Ya think? Yeah, good job there Michael, thanks for all of your help man. I think were better off without your type of example or help.
I don't know if you guys would treat somebody else like that, like Infymus may have done, but I certainly hope not. When you start calling someone fat and bald and using the F word every other word, you have obviously lost your mind and the argument and you must feel that it is the only way you can get back at them. That's pretty damn sad!!
There is never a need for that, EVER, unless you are so incompetent and out of control, that you can't articulate a decent response, which is obviously what happened to Infymus, if he did indeed say these things. He may need to get some help for that don't you think? Obviously Daniel Peterson rattled his cage pretty good and he felt that he needed to personally berate him, again, if he did indeed say those things.
Now, I can see maybe going off in one Email, due to emotion and frustration, but I would say that a serious of Emails, like say around 8 or so, would show a pattern that is far more than a temporary emotional outburst. It, to me, shows a disturbing pattern of behavior and character of the one that is doing it.
If if did happen, as Daniel Peterson claims, I find in fascinating, that he would continue to send more and more Emails, saying the same foul things, without any more responses by Daniel Peterson. It reminds me of many of the psycho Emailers that I have, that keep Emailing me, time after time, calling me a bigot, an adulterer, a Son of Satan, etc and I don't even respond to them.
A month can go by and boom, I get another one. There is something wrong with these individuals that feel this need to continue to berate people without even a response back.
One thing that could clear this all up, would be if Infymus would simply come forward and release ALL of his Email correspondence with Daniel Peterson, unedited and then we could see if he was lying or not. If he won't maybe someone could actually get it from Daniel Peterson, so that we can know the truth. I would think that an innocent man would want to defend his good name, wouldn't he?
Oh, but let's keep in mind, his original statement, that started the thread over at the Foyer:
Quote:
I publish none of Norton's material, and don't even link to his site. Norton is free to do what he wants, but I find him to be more of an extremist. I will admit, however, that in the beginning, I did publish many of his items on the Mormon Curtain, but then I began to realize that his material just didn't fit. Even some of Samuel the Utahnite's articles I have cleaned out. Not because I'm censoring anything, I just felt the direction I wanted to go was more of real information and real life issues - not absolute rants. TBMS often see the pure rants and think that is all that Ex-Mormonism is about, and in many ways it can be, but does not entirely encompass it.
If he did say those things to Peterson, Which I sincerely hope he didn't, it would appear that he clearly wants to be perceived one way publicly, while behaving in the exact opposite way privately and that would be pretty damn hypocritical I would say, wouldn't you?
Now, some of you may be asking: why bring this here? Well, if Infymus wants to handle this publicly, we will handle it publicly and he is an official poster here in Shades room as he came in to pump up his site, right?
I also felt that he betrayed my trust and took a dump on both me and Norton. I can't speak for Mike, but I know that I thought we had a great relationship, as we've Emailed back and forth since last August. I would have hoped that he could have personally Emailed me and let me know what he was deleting of mine and why.
It's very obvious to me that he has singled out both Norton and myself as the ones he wants to clean out and it has nothing to do with, what we are writing, rather who we are, while at the same time, he is pumping up his "celebrities."
I think he sums that up quite well in the post that he left here, when he said, "I have celebrities who routinely send me posts and I have some of the single largest collection of articles published by Steve Benson, Bob McCue and Tal Bachman." Oh okay, we all better go running right?
So, once again, I find myself dealing with a double standard, a hypocrite and maybe he's just falling into his old Mormon behavioral patterns, who knows? I also know, for a fact, that at times, he hasn't been too fond of one of his "celebrity posters", Steve Benson, as he agreed with me regarding his tactics, and "being out of control", from our Email correspondence.
I also felt that you guys needed to know this information, since Infymus came on here talking up his site and pretending to be such a nice guy. I felt that this was important for you to know so that you could make an educated decision on whether you wanted to support his site or not.
Me personally, after strongly supporting and defending him on occasion, for about 7 months...I'm done. I've already pulled his link from my site and will recommend him no more to anybody, not that he will give a tinkers damn. It's unfortunate because his site does have great information, but in my opinion, Richard Packham's site or Bob McCue's sites, along with Shades, Josephlied and even mine, are great places people can go for more information.
The site of all sites, as I'm sure most of you would agree, is The Tanners Lighthouse Ministry and then you also have Deconstructor's site which is fantastic. So tell me again why we should care about The Mormon Curtain so much? Oh yeah, the celebrities, I forgot!! There are simply too many places to go to for information to act as if you are the authority and the one and only place or the biggest or best.
I also think the actual archives of RFM are a pretty good place to go and my story is still on the Biography board as are several of my opinions regarding missionaries and the Newsweek article and I'm grateful that they archived them.
So, in conclusion, just remember Mike, that Infymus says regarding you, that he is "free to do what he wants." That's nice of him, isn't it?
So, INFYMUS, please remove everything of mine and I'll let you know which of the articles without my name are also mine, so that they can be removed as well. Simply put, as I already said above, using your words, your site "just doesn't fit in" to where I want my material posted any longer and I too, want to go in a different direction. I would much rather post things here in Mormon Discussions and archive my links as Dr. Shades has personally requested.
Infymus, you clearly stated to Susan I/S, conversations that I've archived by the way, that you would gladly remove anyone's material if they asked you to and that in fact you have already had a few people request it and that you complied with their wishes immediately. Well, now you can add my wishes to your list and immediately remove my links and posts.
Also, I'm not gonna get into a Email battle back and forth and I would appreciate you not treating me as foul as you appear to have treated Daniel Peterson. If you do feel that need to snap, and be very foul with me, please do it here, so that everyone will be able to see it for themselves and be a witness, okay? I'm involving the group here as you did over on "The Foyer." Let's open this up to group discussion, I think that would be great!!
Anyway, I just felt the need to express this and I'm also looking out for all of you in here, that want to make an educated decision on whether you want to throw your support behind his website or someone of Infymus' apparent character. I for one do not, as I've made very clear in this post and at this point, I very much regret any and all association that I've had with him.
I regret that I thought we were Email friends that had each others back. I was duped and I admit it. I fought for him, defended him and he never did shit for me, except post my stuff. He must have found it comical that I would go to bat for him when he thought so little of me and my ranting posts that he now felt the need to start "cleaning up."
Did I take this personally? Hell yes I did!! I thought that he was a good guy just trying to help people like I was and never at any point, did he express any concern to me personally, about my style of writing or expression or my ranting; that is, until I read it in "The Foyer" last night.
I guess I felt loyalty or trust where there was none and that is why I regret my association with him. Also, due to his apparent lack of honesty and character, I now wonder what he really said to Susan I/S, as I con only assume that he wasn't completely forthcoming and only shared with us his, "under control comments."
So, maybe, just maybe, it was his piss poor attitude that upset Susan and made it personal, not so much the fact that he was culling from RFM. Who knows and we probably never will.
However, as we go our separate ways, I do wish him the best in his confused world and I hope that he figures out what he is doing with his site and I look very forward to seeing all of my articles deleted ASAP, so that there are no ties between us, so that nobody thinks that I in anyway support him any longer.
I also want to say that everything in this post is my personal opinion and in no way reflects on Dr. Shades or anybody else. I'm simply expressing what I believe to be the facts and reality of the situation, in this 100% censorship-free forum and now Infymus can respond with what he believes to be the truth, along with many explanations of his behavior.
If I've offended any Mormon Curtain supporters or big Infymus fans out there, I apologize as that was not my intention, rather just to share the facts as I see them. I also felt that it would be better to deal with it here since Infymus may chose to go ballistic and I felt that everyone should see that for themselves if it happened.
I also want to state that this was an unfortunate and completely unforeseen turn of events for me as I thought that I'd have a connection with The Mormon Curtain forever. Some things are just not meant to be, just as I discovered Mormonism to be a fraud. Sometimes we want things to be true or right, so badly, that we overlook the reality. In this instance, I'm looking at the reality of things and taking the appropriate action that works for me.
Take care everyone and thanks for listening. At least now you can weigh the facts and decide for yourselves, if you want to support Infymus and his site.
I will now end this post in true Infymus fashion, with:
Peace,
Samuel.
The Mormon Truth
Well guys, that's the deal. It's unfortunate, but the sooner that he deletes all of my posts over there, the better and we can both move forward. My mind is obviously decided, as you can tell from what I expressed above. Once my posts are deleted, he won't have to be concerned over what posts of mine are appropriate and which ones aren't. This will certainly simplify things for him, won't it?
He can simply move forward and I won't have to worry about which of my posts he is deleting and what type of BS he's saying about me behind my back, regarding my posts. I would have supported this guy forever, if he just had the common decency to come to me and say, "hey Samuel, I'm going in a different direction and what you write, no longer fits in and I need to delete this and that, etc. Sure I would have been pissed, I can't lie, but at least I wouldn't have had to find it in some other chat room. Give me a damn break!!
Take care everyone and I'll talk to you soon,
Samuel the Utahnite
***Update-Here was Mike Norton's response to the incorrect, false statements that Infymus made about him:
Samuel, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. It seems as if Infymus and I have one thing in common, we both think Susan I/S can go to hell. Of course, she might have to get off the computer that she spends upwards of 18 hours a day on and leave her house that I've been told she hasn't left in YEARS, but, rest assured, she CAN go to hell.
Also, a couple of things that Infymus said that I'd like to correct. He referred to the guys around Temple Square that hold up JosephLied.com signs as my "hired men". I've never paid anyone to advertise my site other than Google. Also, I've never been served "legal papers" for trespassing by the cult but I DID receive a written warning from them telling me that I couldn't go back inside any temples or I'll be arrested. Some may call that "legal papers". I dunno.
Lastly, the Layton "City Council" never threatened to have me arrested for my anti-war sign in my front yard but the idiot that is the Layton City Attorney did indeed threaten such an action. However, I fought him on it and won. The sign still stands and they have wisely decided to leave me alone.
So, I'll let Infymus do what he wants. I really don't see what I have on my site that's so terrible but, hey, to each his own.
Nort
Yeah, just as I suspected, it looks like Infymus might want to get his facts straight before he starts trashing Mike Norton and telling lies about his personal life when the reality is, that he knows nothing about it and never has. I thought it was important to post Mike's personal response, in order to tell the truth, in response to the false statements by Infymus regarding him, that made Mike Norton look terrible.
Mike Norton has spent a lot of personal time and money in order to help people out of the Mormon cult and continues to do so as we speak. Thanks Mike for all that you do and have done. Now you all know the true story and the true facts!!
Samuel the Utahnite
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