I don't have time right now to write a description, but I will try to do it later on, as I'm going to return to blogging now, after I've been very busy in my personal life and I also took a little break to focus on my YouTube videos, which now total 274, with over 1,200,000 hits and over 20,000 comments since July of 2007, mostly thanks to all of you, who watch the videos and send them to others, who pass them on and on.
Many of you have wondered where I've been and have asked me to please start blogging and podcasting again, which I have been planning to do and I look forward to it, as I've really missed it.
I will be posting many back posts here on my blog, that I started but never had time to finish, like this one. I will be publishing mostly current posts, but please scroll down often, as you'll also find new posts there as well, over the next few weeks.
Take care guys and enjoy "crying Eyring" and his sidekick and college pal "Cook the crook", as they blubber their way through this ridiculous, bullshit press conference, where they act like they think their comedians at times and the Utah press stand in awe of them and kiss their asses up one side and down the other, with mostly one softball question after another.
Now with Hinckley kicking the bucket, we have to wonder all over again who the next Apostle will be and then sit through yet another half-assed press conference.
Richard G. Hinckley anyone? LOL!!
Thanks again everyone for your strong support, even when I'm not on my blog very often and for those that have found me over on YouTube and have supported me there(and you all know who you are) and helped me to expose this evil, vile, MORmON cult and helped me fight against the vile, disgusting and pathetic MORmON apologists...THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!
Back on October 2 of this past week, the desperate, Mormon cult Hierarchy, planned their first "Online News Conference", which I consider to be a massive train wreck, full of lies, outright deceptions, half-truths and double talk, you know, the normal modus operandi for the corrupt, lying Mormon Hierarchy and their payed pawns/PR and spokes people, that they parade in front of the camera to do their dirty work for them, when they get tired of lying and need a little break.
It's hard for me to watch this utter bullshit and believe that they're actually pretending and declaring that it's "the truth" and that they're just deceiving the world the way they are, despite so many of us in "the real world" knowing "the real truth." They actually think that the world is so damn, stupid and it is their arrogance and stupidity, that will eventually be their downfall and already is, in reality.
My guess is that they must be trying to reach out to the clueless and uneducated, since they can't possibly be trying to reach the educated, Internet connected people, can they? Well, I guess that's why they call it arrogance, because they actually think they can fool even the educated people of the world, who correctly believe that Mormonism is for fools and just another cult, a la David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.
Anyway, I want to give a big shout out and thanks to Truthseeker for posting these videos, so that we can all watch them here in Mormon Truth and then dissect them and tell the everyone out there "the real truth", if they aren't aware of it already.
Intelligent people do occasionally get caught up in Mormonism and many are born into the Mormon cult, like many of us were; so maybe this will help them to realize that truth, reality and facts are more important than emotions and burning bosoms, which is really ALL that Mormonism has, presents and brings to the table. They really don't want anyone to go beyond the eye candy and surface, because once you get past that, you'll soon discover that it's rotten to the core.
This video is nothing but superficial bullshit, by two paid PR people, who couldn't care less about the truth. They are just doing and saying what the Mormon cult Hierarchy pays and tells them to do. It is my opinion that these online press conference and attempts to reach out only to the media, will fail miserably, like every other plan they've tried. I guess this is all part of "Truth Restored", which is their desperate plan to blitz the world through every avaialable type of media.
I wonder how those test markets for Jesus are going? Like Ballard and his thugs said, "if it doesn't work and we have to go back to the Quorum of the 12 and tell them that we have failed...", that they're basically screwed and have no more ideas. Of course they really don't answer to anybody, and are all in it together, since Scott and Ballard are Apostles and of course Richard Hinckley is Gordon's son. What would they do...fire them?!! Give me a break!! So enjoy and as always, your comments are welcome.
Wow, what exciting times for Mormons eh? You can feel the excitement in the air, as everyone anticipates and wonders who the next Apostle will be, who will slide into the First Presidency and have a few keys added to their key chain.
In order, the two videos above, are first, the EXACT words of M. Russell Ballard, regarding what he feels about his Mormon missionaries, 6 who had just been killed in a little over a month. I never get tired of sharing his hate with the world.
The second video was posted over on Google videos by Truthseeker, and are the most recent words of Ballard, as he attempted to answer various questions that are often posed regarding Mormonism. His answers are of course complete BS and double talk and more mind fucking, but that's par for the course and we should expect nothing different from any of these losers.
Finally, the audio clip is of M. Russell Ballard, at a Stake Conference, stating that "we don't know we're dead when we die." He stated it in the official capacity of a Mormon Apostle as official Mormon doctrine, that HAS TO BE TRUE, because his Grandpa personally knew it to be true and was an Apostle, therefore it can't be questioned. I apologize that the audio isn't better(with all the damn crying, Mormon babies in the background and no "crying rooms" for them to be taken to), but the main part that CLEARLY stands out, which you'll hear 3 times, is "We don't know we're dead when we die."
Here is the description I wrote for that audio, that I'll include when I post it on my Mormon Truth Interviews podcast:
M. Russell Ballard repeats at least 3 times, that "you don't know your dead when you die." He claims it's 100% true, because his Grandpa taught it, knew it personally and was an Apostle, so it can't be questioned and is 100% Mormon doctrine, now confirmed by 2 Mormon Apostles.
He says that you won't know your dead until you try to do something that you could do in the flesh, and won't be able to do it...then the light will go on in your spirit head, that you're dead.
So, I guess one day you wake up, try to go to the bathroom, take a shower, pet the cat, etc and you won't be able to do it. Then what? He never explains what you do, once you realize that you are indeed dead? LOL!!
He then tells everyone about a vision that Wilford Woodruff had, where he was in heaven, and Joseph Smith ran past him, then Brigham Young ran past him along with other famous Mormon General Authorities, all in a huge hurry.
Finally, he got Joseph Smith to stop and talk to him, just for a second and asked him why he was running and in such a hurry; Joseph explained that they were doing genealogy, or "the work" for everyone and they had to hurry, because their wasn't much time and that all of the other generations, had thousands of years to prepare and do their work, but that they only had a very short time.
Well, it's been over 160 years since Joseph Smith was shot to death in a gun battle, after he had the printing press destroyed and Christ hasn't returned yet. I wonder if he's still running back and forth, along with Brigham Young and all the other dumb shit, Mormon GAs, because the time is so short?
I guess the ALL powerful Mormon God, couldn't just snap his fingers and have the work done eh? Well, at least they're getting their exercise and I just hope they get breaks and lunch, so that they don't get too overworked, hungry and thirsty, while running around doing all that genealogy. Then again, maybe they still don't know that they're dead? LOL!! Can you guys believe this BS?!! =============
Anyway, Ballard is an idiot and therefore the PERFECT candidate to move into the First Presidency, to compliment the other two buffoons Thomas S. Monson and Gordon B. Hinckley.
As far as the new Apostle goes, my first guess would be Cecil O. Samuelson, for building a building for Hinckley and then naming it after him. After all, it worked for Bednar at BYU-Idaho. The other option would be Kim B. Clark, the President of BYU-Idaho, who gave up his career at Harvard, when "Moses"(Hinckley) called him. However, I don't think he's paid enough dues to be called yet, so maybe after the next guy kicks the bucket, he'll be called.
Now, the PERFECT choice for Apostle, would of course be Richard B. Hinckley, but the NEPOTISM, might terrify Gordon B. Hinckley, just like it did when he called him to be a Seventy and is therefore a long shot at best. I'm sure Hinckley would just love to slip him in before he kicked it and hey, if that's what the Mormon God wants, that's what he'll get and who is anyone to argue with King Hinckley, right?
Well, the conference just started and they had a commercial for Deseret book, advertising some 14 part video series on Joseph Smith. One lady said that "he was the most Christ-like man she's ever known or read about" and then some dumbass added that "Joseph Smith was the most loving and tender-hearted man that ever walked the face of the earth, or something along those lines. What a pathetic joke, as I already feel like puking and the General Conference hasn't even started!!
So, the semi-annual Mormon mind-fuck has begun and I can't wait to hear all of their other bullshit, that will be spewed from the Mormon pulpit. Just remember the words of the faithful cult member Van Hale, who preaches that NOTHING is official Mormon doctrine, including General Conference talks, so there's really no reason to give a flying shit about anything these dumb shits say, right? Well, at least according to Van Hale there isn't.
I'll add to this post, once they announce who the new Apostle of fraud is.
***UPDATE***
Well, the Hinckster just announced that Quentin L. (LaMar) Cook, is the new Apostle and thatHenry B. Eyring(who was my second choice behind Ballard) is the new member of the First Presidency, because he crys a lot and is very emotional...LOL!! He'll be able to fire up those old bosoms and sob like a baby, for The Lord. I can't wait to hear him talk this weekend, as I'm sure the tears will flow freely, and he'll be SO HUMBLED, etc...LOL!!
Truth is, that I've had something on Henry B. (Bennion) Eyring(Demon of Kolob knows what it is), that I've been saving for a few weeks, just in case he was called into the First Presidency, so that I'd have something to BLAST the damn hypocrite on, so let the blasting begin. I'll try to write that post this weekend, so that you can all see what a damn hypocrite the new member of the First Presidency is.
Part of what I have to say regarding Eyring, is infuriating and the other part is hilarious, as you'll all soon see. It just proves that they TRULY have no "spirit of discernment" whatsoever, even when EVIL, DISEASE GERM, full of darkness, anti-Mormon APOSTATES like myself, are right next to them...LMAO!! You would have thought the Holy Ghost would have whispered to him, but to no avail, as is normal with these frauds of the " Mormon God."
Truth is that they're all hypocrites, but we just have to catch them being a hypocrite, at the right time, in the right place, which I did with Mr. crybaby Henry B. Eyring.
I discovered this great video last night over on YouTube and I felt that EVERYONE needed to see it, especially Mormon Truth readers and supporters, or those looking to investigate Mormonism.
This video over on YouTube is in 9 parts, around 3 minutes each, but I've taken the time to put it into one consecutive video, just over 25 minutes in length, to make it easier to watch. Be sure to head over to YouTube and leave comments on these videos and let them know what you think.
For me, it is all too familiar, of what it was like to be on my mission and I've been having painful flashbacks, as I'm sure many of you returned missionaries will also have, as you watch this. Anything for the cult and lying for the Lord, is what it's all about folks!! This video certainly drives that point home.
It's hard to believe that I was such a brainwashed, uneducated dumbass, speaking to grown, mature adults, as if they were ignorant little children, trying to convince them that they weren't truly happy and couldn't possibly EVER be happy, unless they got baptized and became a Mormon.
Like the missionaries current "official" teaching guide(Preach My Gospel) says, as I paraphrase; "true eternal happiness can only come from being baptized a Mormon and no other way."
So, in other words, NO ONE is truly happy that isn't Mormon, in this life or the next, even if they don't realize it and they will be ETERNALLY miserable both here and there, wishing that they'd just chosen to be a Mormon when given the chance on earth or after they died, in spirit prison, where Mormons teach that people like non-Mormon "Mother Theresa" was forced to be sent, to be taught by Mormon missionaries.
If she said NO, then according to the loving, "Mormon plan of salvation", she'll be eternally separated from all of her loved ones, friends, family and EVERYONE that she ever helped, all around the world.
Meanwhile, complete assholes, perverts and child rapists, like Joseph Smith, the serial adulterer, liar and convicted criminal, and the vile, racist, blood-atoning Brigham Young, who preached "death on the spot", for blacks who mixed their seed with Caucasians...are basking in the glow of the highest level of Celestial glory, as Gods of worlds without number. Anyone else see a problem with this?!!
I mean what an absolutely ABSURD statement by Mormon Stake President/cult leader Tracy Branch!!
So, check it out...even a 21 year old Mormon missionary, gets a "free ticket", for dying on his mission, while Mother Theresa gets Mormon "spirit prison." Anyone else take issue with that? I mean no disrespect, but I'd like to know what William Angilau did, in Tracy Branch's opinion, that deserves or warrants the "free ticket", that Mother Theresa didn't get.
Oh yeah, he's Mormon for one thing and died on his mission=free ticket. A LIFETIME of helping people for over 70 years=Spirit prison and Joseph Smith being shot to death(in a gun battle in which he shot 3 men, killing 2) for lying about polygamy and destroying the printing press=PRICELESS!!
It takes some serious arrogance and cojones to basically CONDEMN "Mother Theresa" for all eternity, if she isn't Mormon. Amazing that all of her GREAT and AMAZING works, are rendered meaningless, unless she becomes a Mormon. I guess that type of arrogance is only fitting for the Mormon, literal "Gods-in-embryo."(Miracle Of forgiveness-Page 3)
I think the one thing I'd forgotten, was the incredible arrogance of Mormon missionaries, who truly believe they represent Jesus Christ and somehow think they have the entire world and eternity ALL figured out, since they believe that they belong to the "ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH" on the the face of the planet.
Of course EVERYONE else belongs to "false, corrupt abominations", "whores of all the earth", and "churches of the Devil"; according to their/Joe's beloved First Vision and proclaimed most correct book in the world...The Book of Mormon, which he "translated", by sticking his head in a hat, as confirmed by current Apostle Russell M. Nelsonand official Mormon Apologist, Daniel C. Peterson, who is the paid, right hand man of Mormon "Prophet" Hinckley.
Watching this video also reminded me of how fanatical the Mormon missionaries are, since obsessing with baptizing people, is all they do 24/7, for 2 years(UNDER TREMENDOUS FEAR AND THREATS FROM THEIR LEADERS, MISSION PRESIDENT, THE SEVENTIES, RIGHT UP THE LINE TO HINCKLEY, THE MORMON DICTATOR) and then when others don't understand their INTENSE obsession; they are offended, even laugh and just can't grasp why what they're saying, isn't as critically important to the people, as it is to them.
They are incredulous when someone's bosom doesn't instantly and spontaneously burn for ol'Joe and they find it inconceivable and incomprehensible. I speak from first hand experience and as Chicago/Peter Cetera once sang, "I Remember The Feeling."
If anyone wants to do a study on cults and the most obsessed, brainwashed, fanatical members of a cult; Mormon missionaries are the PRIME and PERFECT example and case study, as I can't think of many other mainstream cults that have members rising to the level of the fanaticism of a Mormon missionary, as everyone can clearly see in this clip.
Lyndon Lamborn was excommunicated from the Mormon church for doubting some of its claims, but on Sunday his stake president backed away from a plan to publicly announce his ouster.
Stake President R. James Molina wouldn’t tell the Tribune why he refrained from making the announcement at the eight wards under his leadership. Molina had told the Tribune last week that he intended to have bishops publicly announce the discipline taken against Lamborn, a fourth-generation member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as a warning that he may spread blasphemy about the church.
Lamborn, 49, had gone before a disciplinary council of male elders on Aug. 19 where excommunication was ordered. Molina, president of the Mesa Arizona Salt River Stake, wrote to Lamborn in a letter dated Sept. 2, stating that “because of the nature of your excommunication and your involvement with the people of this area, an announcement will be delivered to the Melchizedek Priesthood quorums and Relief Society in each of the wards in our stake ... Sept. 23, 2007, that you have been excommunicated for apostasy.”
Excommunication allows him to be at church events, but not have membership privileges, wear temple garments or tithe.
Such a public announcement about an excommunication in the church is extremely rare, Mormon leaders confirmed.
It’s not clear whether Molina’s announcement was withheld as a result of the publicity the issue has garnered or whether he intends to do it at a later date.
Lamborn said Thursday he went to the Thunder Mountain Ward meeting Sunday expecting the announcement, then asked Molina why nothing happened. Lamborn said the stake president told him “I haven’t made a final decision.”
Molina said Thursday that the Lamborn issue “is a private matter, so I don’t have anything to say to you guys on it.”
=============
It's obvious to anyone with half a brain, exactly what happened here; Lyndon Lamborn went to the press and exposed R. James Molina's plan to humiliate and embarrass him and his family to the entire Stake, before R. James Molina got the chance to carry out his devious plan.
Fortunately, for people like Lyndon, Mormon Bishops and Stake Presidents like R. James Molina, are so stupid, clueless, caught up in their ego, and their so called "authority and power" and utter arrogance, devoid of any inspiration from on high; that they think that people like Lyndon would NEVER DARE question his so called "authority" or "spirit of discernment" and do what he did, by beating him to the punch and making it public.
Lyndon thwarted Jimmy's little plan of personal destruction and war that he was looking forward to starting, with Lyndon and his innocent family members and friends. People like R. James Molina have no human decency, don't care what pain their pointless, unjustified actions will cause, because it's all for the cult, because the cult is TRUE, Joe's a Prophet, the BOM is true...at any cost. Mr. Molina is hoping that by "being the man", he can maybe get a promotion within the corporation and maybe become a Seventy or gasp...even an Apostle?
After all, there is an opening since James E. "GOLD FILLINGS" Faustkicked the bucket and I'm sure he thought this might earn him some serious brownie points, by being a hard-ass for Joseph, Hinckley and the Mormon Jesus. Only problem; he was too dumb and lacking of any common sense, insight, inspiration or discernment, to realize what could possibly happen and ultimately did happen, by having the whole thing blow up in his face.
So much for his promotion eh? In fact, I'm pretty sure that he got a severe scolding and tongue lashing from the goons sitting on their golden thrones in Salt Lake City, for bring so much needless controversy and negative publicity to the Mormon cult.
The Mormon Hierarchy is desperate and really on their heels right now, trying to counter the power of the Internet. They are constantly running from and trying to cover up the truth of their history, their evil, vile and horrific teachings and doctrines, their countless lies, their racism, bigotry, homophobia, sexism, hate and condemnation of ALL other people and religions("whores of all the earth", "abominations", "Harlots", "False", "Corrupt", "of the Devil"), full exposure of the lack of any Book of Mormon artifacts, archeology, DNA, etc, and this was the last thing they needed right now.
Anyway, I greatly admire Lyndon and his courage for taking these thugs straight on and winning. They look horrible and he looks like a great, honest guy, who stood up for himself, the truth and his family and in turn, was treated unfairly, dishonestly and un-Christlike.
The Mormon cult and their cult leader Molina look like the fools they are, always have been and always will be....excommunicating a good guy for simply reading "REAL" Mormon history, found in "OFFICIAL" Mormon books(currently sold at Mormon owned and run Deseret/Seagull/BYU bookstores) and then discussing it with others, like family members and friends...GASP!!
I had no idea that simply reading and studying TRUE Mormon history, out of their official books(that they sell daily and profit from) and then discussing it with friends and family, would warrant an immediate excommunication and announcement to the entire Stake. It appears to me that "THEY'VE LOWERED THE BAR!!"
They should be ASHAMED of themselves!!
I guess Boyd K. Packer wasn't kidding, when he said the following:
"You seminary teachers and some of you institute and BYU men will be teaching the history of the Church this school year. This is an unparalleled opportunity in the lives of your students to increase their faith and testimony of the divinity of this work. Your objective should be that they will see the hand of the Lord in every hour and every moment of the Church from its beginning till now." "There is no such thing as an accurate, objective history of the Church without consideration of the spiritual powers that attend this work."
"Church history can be so interesting and so inspiring as to be a very powerful tool indeed for building faith.If not properly written or properly taught, it may be a faith destroyer."
"There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not.Some things that are true are not very useful."
"That historian or scholar who delights in pointing out the weaknesses and frailties of present or past leaders destroys faith. A destroyer of faith—particularly one within the Church, and more particularly one who is employed specifically to build faith—places himself in great spiritual jeopardy. He is serving the wrong master, and unless he repents, he will not be among the faithful in the eternities."
"One who chooses to follow the tenets of his profession, regardless of how they may injure the Church or destroy the faith of those not ready for “advanced history,” is himself in spiritual jeopardy. If that one is a member of the Church, he has broken his covenants and will be accountable. After all of the tomorrows of mortality have been finished, he will not stand where he might have stood."
and finally:
"Remember: when you see the bitter apostate, you do not see only an absence of light, you see also the presence of darkness.
Do not spread disease germs!
Let's also remember that it was Boyd K. Packer(in "To Young Men Only"-AKA "The Little Factory Talk", General Conference Priesthood Session, October 2, 1976), advocating physical violence toward others, when he said:
"While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.
After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, "I hit my companion."
"Oh, is that all," I said in great relief.
"But I floored him," he said.
After learning a little more, my response was"Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way"
I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself."
Uh...yeah, Boyd K. Packer should have been excommunicated a LONG TIME AGO!!
So, I guess Boyd K. Packer wouldn't mind you guys also punching him in the face and "dropping him" too, if you're around him and don't like him, or something that he says or does? So have fun folks, just following his advice of using physical violence, that has the official "Packer Stamp of approval" for missionaries, but also prepare yourself for the ensuing lawsuit from Jesus' "one and only true" lawyers...LOL!!
This is truly another amazing story and example of what the Mormon cult is really all about, at its core. Lyndon Lamborn has been excommunicated by his Stake President, for simply discussing with others, like family members, "the real truth" of Mormon history, found in "official Mormon sources" and I felt that everyone should read this story and have a place to comment on it.
I can't wait to hear what you TBM/Mormon apologists have to say, in defense of your cult this time. There's already a Mormon apologist nut-job(ironically using the name "Mystified Mormon") going to town over on the East Valley Tribune website and I get nauseated just reading his excuses and justifications of his Mormon cult leaders. I guess to you clueless clowns, NO Mormon leader has EVER said or done anything wrong and they are literal deity, right? Oh yeah, but you don't worship your leaders, rather Jesus Christ, right? What a joke!!
Anyway, it's good to be back writing on my blog and I apologize to everyone for my long absence, while I was dedicating myself to gettingmy YouTube videosup and running strong, which they now are.
In just over 2 months, thanks to all of you out there, I've had over 240,000 hits and over 7,000 comments, on the 142 videos now posted there, along with 157 subscribers, which will continue to grow and help expose the Mormon cult for the fraud it is.
I also want to give a big thanks toChimyron, Demon of Kolob, JHuston7, Elder Joseph, Bringumyoungand all of the other ex-Mormons who are doing an outstanding job over on YouTube and other places, exposing the Mormon cult through their videos and allowing me and others to post their videos, while also posting my videos and commenting on them. The greater the exposure, the better!!
I'd also like to give a special welcome to Euilibrium83who just joined the mix by exposing his former, asshole, masturbation and fear obsessed mission president Allan Pratt, who presided over the France Toulouse Mission. I'll be posting those videos here in the next day, so that you can watch them all here, so check back.
Anyway, you'll all be hearing a lot more from me in the next few days and future, as I'm going to once again dedicate myself to my blogs, podcasts and Skypecasts, with a lot of exciting things coming up, which I'll be letting you all know about soon.
Here is the article regarding Lyndon Lamborn's experience with the Mormon cult's witch hunt of him, ensuing excommunication and then their goal of public humiliating and trashing of him, his character and family. The Mormon Hierarchy's goal, is to publicly DESTROY, DISCREDIT and EMBARRASS anyone that discovers the "REAL TRUTH" and then talks about it publicly, with others or even their own family.
Like Lyndon says in a comment, responding to the article:
"When I first confronted my bishop about my findings and questions, he immediately went into 'damage control' mode. I mentioned in confidentiality that I had been discussing the issues with my brothers. The following week, my bishop had contacted the bishops of ALL my brothers, and they each received a visit from the 'Men In Black'. I honestly felt I was in 1939 Nazi Germany. Real life is stranger than fiction!"
Like Hinckley always says..."isn't it wonderful?!!" NOT!! ============= Mormon Ousted As An Apostate Lawn Griffiths, Tribune
Being excommunicated for apostasy by the Mormon church is one thing, but Lyndon Lamborn is livid that his stake president has ordered bishops in eight Mesa wards to take the rare step of announcing disciplinary action against him to church members today.
“I thought if he could go public, so can I,” said Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who said his research into church history gave him “thousands of reasons the church can’t be what it claims to be.”
Stake President R. James Molina acknowledged Friday he intends to have Lamborn’s excommunication announced to the wards at men’s priesthood meetings and womens Relief Society gatherings, even with Lamborn now taking his case public. Molina, as well as officials at church headquarters in Salt Lake City, call such a public warning about an ousted member extremely rare.
They say, however, church members must be protected from what discordant ex-followers may say to damage the church.
In a letter to Lamborn dated Sept. 2, Molina noted that a disciplinary council had been held Aug. 19 and excommunication was ordered. Lamborn, 49, a Mesa resident who has been a priesthood leader for 20 years, was informed he was no longer a church member, could not “enjoy any membership privileges, including the wearing of temple garments and the payment of tithes and offerings.”
He could attend public meetings if his conduct is orderly, but would be denied giving any talks, offering prayers, partaking of the sacrament or voting.
“Because of the nature of your excommunication and your involvement with people in this area, an announcement will be delivered to the Melchizedek Priesthood quorums and Relief Society in each of the wards in our stake ... on Sunday, September 23, 2007, that you have been excommunicated for apostasy,“ Molina wrote.
“We need to let people know if there is a danger to them, such as him teaching doctrine that is contrary to what is taught by the church,” Molina said Friday.
Lamborn, a member of the Thunder Mountain Ward, said his Mormon roots go back generations, with a great-grandfather in the famed Mormon Battalion that trekked from Iowa to San Diego in 1846 and 1847.
Lamborn served a two-year Mormon mission in 1977-79 in Belgium, was elders quorum president four times and led a Mormon Boy Scout troop. Most recently, he said he was assigned to teach older men in his ward and held other roles.
But everything changed in early 2005. Lamborn, an engineer employed at Boeing in Mesa for nearly 25 years, was asked by a work colleague about the wives of church founder Joseph Smith. She had read “Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith” by John Krakauer and asked Lamborn if what she had read was accurate.
Smith, the first LDS prophet and president, had at least 33 wives by many accounts.
“Well, I had no knowledge of multiple wives, so I did some research, including using the church’s own genealogical Web site, familysearch.org,” Lamborn said.
He found the information concurred with the book. “Nonmembers seemed to know more about the personal life of Joseph Smith than me,” he said.
Lamborn conducted further research, which led him to question many church teachings. He said he went to Molina with his questions, but received no definitive answers.
Lamborn has been attending the three-hour ward meetings with his wife and 16-year-old son. His two daughters, 22 and 24, “are totally out of Mormonism.”
He said he learned that his five brothers “were doing the same research and arriving at the same conclusions” and doubts, he said. The same was true for his best friend since childhood. In a meeting earlier this summer with Molina, Lamborn acknowledged that he wanted to give up his church membership.
“I was planning to leave the church quietly, but was denied that opportunity, presumably because I was speaking openly to other members about my findings and (was) writing things down,” Lamborn said.
Lamborn has compiled his research into a lengthy testament called, “Search for Truth 6/07,” in which he states: “There comes a time in the life of many church members when the desire to know the truth about the church becomes stronger than the desire to believe the church is true.”
He said he intends to continue to accompany his wife, Nancy, to ward services. “It is tough to go, tough to attend, but I enjoy the fellowship,” he said.
He said he has no desire to join another church, adding that the Mormon faith has many merits, such as its strong family values and its internationally recognized welfare system to help those in need.
The public announcement of his excommunication will be toughest on his wife, Lamborn said. “There’s the embarrassment,” he said. “Friends won’t know how to treat her. The awkwardness. It is going to be tougher on her than anybody.”
Clark Hirschi, manager of the area relations division in Salt Lake City, said Friday he talked to Molina after the stake president was contacted by the Tribune.
“Despite the fact that he has told you this is going to happen, it is up to the priesthood leaders,” Hirschi said. “There may be a letter read to some of the adult members this Sunday. It might be in a few weeks. It may not happen. That is going to be at the discretion and call of the stake president.”
Hirschi said he has never been in a meeting in his own 20 years as a Mormon where a public announcement about an excommunication has been made. He said he had only heard of one being made in a neighboring stake. =============
I tried posting the following comment over on the East Valley Tribune site, where the article is located, but I guess the comment is too long, as it wouldn't allow me to post it.
Anyway, here is the full comment that I wrote, addressing this issue and publicly inviting Lyndon to come on the "Mormon Truth Podcast" and tell his story:
Lyndon, I first want to say that I'm sorry your going through this and I also commend you on your courage to take on the Mormon cult and their lies regarding their true history and teachings, which they pretend don’t even exist, were never taught, etc. I also came to same shocking conclusion you did back in 2005, once I discovered “the real truth” regarding Mormonism and it’s history, teachings and doctrines. I’ve spent the last 2 years of my life, time and money, passionately writing on my blogs, recording podcasts and posting videos, that expose the Mormon cult for what it truly is. The horrific racist teachings of Brigham Young(along with many other Mormon Prophets and Apostles) regarding blacks being cursed as “the seed of Cain” and “cursed with a flat nose and black skin”, “being literal representatives of Satan on earth” was what put me on the path to “the real truth.”
It was devastating to me and my family and I’ve lost several family members and friends from my life for asking them simple questions like, “did you know that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?” They told me that I should be ashamed of myself for speaking such lies about their beloved Prophet Joseph Smith(who only had ONE WIFE EMMA and who would never do something so awful and evil), especially being a returned missionary and they cut me and anyone that associates with me, out of their life instantly....as it was just that simple for them, as the church ALWAYS comes first, even before family and loved ones..
My niece had just been taught in seminary that year, that polygamy started and ended with Brigham Young and was just to help out the widows. And some of you Mormons out there wonder why people don’t know that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? Where does the Mormon Church and hierarchy, in it’s official history, books, manuals or teachings, state that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. In 30+ years of membership, including lifelong, devout church attendance, 4 years of seminary, 2 months in the MTC and 2 years on my mission and 5 years at BYU institutute...never once did they teach a single word about Joseph Smith’s polygamy...so don’t be so quick to judge us Mormons. When have they ever discussed publicly, the polygamy of Joseph Smith and details of who his wives were, how old they were, that they were happily married to other men, etc? Have they ever taught this in General Conference? Why not?!!
I challenge ANY of you die-hard Mormons and Mormon apologists out there reading this(melting down and screaming LIAR...LIAR), to go to the official Joseph Smith website...JosephSmith.net...and show the world where it openly discusses Joseph Smith’s other wives and emphatically states that Emma WASN’T his only wife and that it wasn’t just a “Joe and Emma” love affair, as they present to the world. I then want you to explain to everyone why there is no mention of his other wives, on the “official” Joseph Smith website, if they are indeed so open and honest about it and have NOTHING to hide.
Oh, by the way, My wife and her entire family were also lifelong members and had NEVER heard about Joseph Smith’s polygamy and the same is true for almost all of my family and friends, who have called me a liar and cut me off, as they are taught to do. Just associating with or sympathizing with an “evil apostate” like me or Lyndon, is forbidden and will get you excommunicated, because we’re so dangerous with “the truth” we now know.
In fact, on the interview with Larry King, when asked about polygamy, current Mormon Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley said “I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think IT IS NOT DOCTRINAL. It is not legal. And this church takes the position that we will abide by the law.” “It is not doctrinal?” Really? What was Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and all the others doing then? Oh and by the way, it was illegal back in their time and they were clearly violating the laws of the land. Also, why did Joseph Smith publicly deny and lie about being a polygamist till his death, calling those that accused him of it to be perjurers? So, Joseph Smith is a proven liar, using his own words...and I again challenge anyone to prove what I’ve said to be false!! Warren Jeffs is the modern day version of Joseph Smith, following Joe’s teachings to a perfect T and if Joe was around today, he’d be rotting in prison and on trial too, just like his buddy and follower Warren Jeffs.
These are the lies that Lyndon and all of us ex-Mormons/apostates are talking about, that terrifies the Mormon cowards/apologists like this Stake President R. James Molina, who is a disgrace in the cover-up of the Mormon cult and all of the skeletons in their closet, that are currently falling all over the ground, for the world to clearly see(which the Mormon hierarchy denies repeatedly). Does Jimmy actually believe that Lyndon is lying? Really?!! Does Mr. R. James Molina even know that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, married to 14 year old Helen Mar Kimball, against her will and that of her mother, holding her entire family’s eternal life and destiny in the balance, basically threatening her and her parents with damnation and fear?
What about all the happily married women, as mentioned in the article, that Joseph Smith forced to marry him? They don’t exist either, right Mormons? So Familysearch.org is also lying and now considered to be anti-Mormon as well? Yes, us apostates are the liars and completely delusional, right? How can the Mormon Hierarchy and leadership consider “OFFICIAL MORMON DOCTRINE and HISTORY” to now be anti-Mormon? Maybe they should be excommunicated for lying about it every single day? Aren’t they just condemning and further embarrassing themselves in their attempts to blatantly lie and cover-up further than they already have? So, you can now be excommunicated from the Mormon cult for just discussing their “actual, real history”, that is currently being sold and profited from at Mormon owned and run Deseret/Seagull and BYU bookstores? Shouldn't they seriously be held to the same standards as the members are and be excommunicating themselves, starting with Gordon B. Hinckley and Sheri L. Dew, for even allowing this evil “anti-Mormon literature” to be sold at THEIR bookstores? Give me a break!! If we aren’t even allowed to even discuss “REAL, OFFICIAL” Mormon history now and will be singled out and publicly excommunicated for it; why should they be allowed to sell it and profit from it? What HYPOCRITES!!
Lyndon, I want to offer you the opportunity and forum to be able to tell your COMPLETE, UNEDITED STORY to the world through an interview on my "Mormon Truth Podcast", available to the world through my blog and iTunes. Just follow the link here to my main blog, which links to my podcasts or Google “Mormon Truth” or “Mormon Truth Podcast” and you’ll easily find me, my blogs, podcasts and Email address if you are interested. There will be no time limit and you can either just record your story yourself, on your own time and forward it to me or do an interview directly with me. You can also search the term “Mormon”, under “podcasts” on iTunes and find my 4 podcasts in the top 25.
The 3 part interview that I did with Joy was very revealing, as she was able to tell her story of how they treated her and her gay friend, who eventually, through his depression, tragically committed suicide. Joy’s father is currently married to TWO LIVING WOMEN(divorced civilly from her Mother), at the same time, in the Mormon temple, which is another secret the Mormon Hierarchy desperately try to cover up(despite Hinckley having to sign off on it and approve of it), that proves they still believe and allow polygamy as we speak. Lyndon, I get over 30,000 downloads a month of my podcasts and growing and this will be a GREAT opportunity for you to get your story and experiences out there, for all to hear, if you would like to do that. I just wanted you know that you will ALWAYS have a place to tell your story when you're ready and that I'm 100% in support of you and on your side!!
Thanks again Lyndon for having the courage to go public and tell the world “The TRUTH”, about the Mormon cult and how they’ve treated you, I wish you the best and I hope to hear back from you soon. ============
As always, I look forward to everyone's comments!!
Here is a direct link to the video the assholes at KSL deleted!!
Another bullshit propaganda piece put out by Mormons from the "Joseph Smith family organization"(M. Russell Ballard is a direct descendant of Joseph Smith) and strongly supported and promoted by Mormon owned and operated KSL(Jesus' personal TV station) and the Mormon cult(headquartered in Salt Lake City , Utah, and led by Prophet of fraud Gordon B. Hinckley); this time praising Emma, who probably was a great woman, who had to suffer and live with the filthy, perverted asshole and self-proclaimed "King of the world, God-ordained, serial adulterer" Joseph Smith, who was the founding Prophet of fraud, of the Mormon cult of shame.
Mormon scripture(Doctrine and Covenants, 135:3) says that Joseph Smith is "2nd only to Jesus Christ" in greatness of all men that ever lived, but the "very humble", "like a lamb to the slaughter" Joseph Smith himself claims to have done more than Jesus Christ ever did, thus contradicting Mormon scripture yet again.
Joseph Smith said:
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."(History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409)
Any Mormons out there that want to call me a liar and claim that he never said what I just posted above? I challenge you all to dispute it and prove me WRONG!!
Here is how Joseph Smith really went to the slaughter, as I referenced above and it wasn't like a lamb folks, rather in a gun battle, where he KILLED two men in cold blood. Jesus Christ wasn't killing anyone when he was beaten, hung and nailed to a cross, was he, you true-believing, Mormon hypocrites out there?
If Joseph Smith had truly been emulating Jesus Christ, he would have just stepped up, opened the door and taken the bullets with no problem at all, because that's what a TRUE martyr would have done, right?
Don't ever tell me again TBMS(because now you know "THE REAL TRUTH") that Joseph Smith went like a lamb to the slaughter and was a martyr for Mormonism...because he simply wasn't and died like he lived his life, in rebellion and destroying human life, only thinking of himself till the bitter end.
Maybe if he hadn't been hungover from getting drunk the night before, he might have been able to move around better and dodge the bullets, since he'd also removed his garments and they couldn't protect him.
In the official history of the church, John Taylor says:
He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Whellock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died.(History of the Church, vol. 7, pp.102-3).
Regarding Joseph Smith and the others drinking wine the night before he was killed in Carthage:
"Before the jailer came in, his boy brought in some water, and said the guard wanted some wine. Joseph gave Dr. Richards two dollars to give the guard; but the guard said one was enough, and would take no more. The guard immediately sent for a bottle of wine, pipes, and two small papers of tobacco; and one of the guards brought them into the jail soon after the jailer went out. Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, and presented a glass to Joseph, who tasted, as also Brother Taylor and the doctor, and the bottle was then given to the guard, who turned to go out..."(History of the Church, vol. 6, p.616).
"Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing,; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us.... I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards."(John Taylor, in History of the Church, Vol. 7, page 101)
Regarding Joseph Smith removing his garments:
"Smith removed his own endowment "robe" or garment before he went to Carthage Jail and told those with him to do likewise. His nephew Joseph F. Smith later explained, "When Willard Richards was solicited [by Smith] to do the same, he declined, and it seems little less than marvelous that he was preserved without so much as a bullet piercing his garments.""(Quinn page 146) Quinn references Heber J. Grant journal sheets, 7 June 1907, LDS Archives.
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the CONSENT OF JOSEPH SMITH. ... every man and woman MUST HAVE the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are."(Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289)
I say that Joseph Smith was also a pedophile, child rapist and sick, perverted creep as well, since he married young girls like Helen Mar Kimball(through deceit and against their will) who was only 14, making them believe that it was just going to be a "spiritual marriage."
He of course would then shock them and force them to have "carnal intercourse" with them, in the name of the Mormon God, much to the young girl's dismay and agony, and this of course was all done behind Emma Smith's back, who was his original wife and only wife according toJosephSmith.net.
Emma knew nothing of Joseph's "God-ordained adultery" for the majority of the time and when she did find out, Joseph Smith went and "got revelation" and "Jesus Christ" told Joseph in D&C 132, that he would literally "destroy Emma", multiple times, if she didn't go along with and accept his God-ordained serial adultery, sex with virgin teens, other men's wives, etc.
Joseph Smith even married his 2 adopted daughters(EMILY AND ELIZA PARTRIDGE-pages 13 & 14), in secret from each other and Emma. In the modern day Bishop's handbook of instructions, this is called INCEST. So yes, adding to his long list of sins and disgusting vileness; Joseph Smith was also guilty of incest!!
Joseph Smith said to Helen Mar Kimball:
"If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father's household & all of your kindred. This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward."
So, he put the eternal salvation of not only herself, but her entire family on the line, based on if she would marry him. She did not marry that SOB willingly and was manipulated through fear and threats, as you can clearly see.
Helen said:
'None but God & his angels could see my mother's bleeding heart—when Joseph asked her if she was willing, she replied "If Helen is willing I have nothing more to say." '
Helen also said:
"I would never have been sealed [married] to Joseph, had I known it was anything more than a ceremony," Helen later confided to her mother.(Mormon Enigma, pp.146-147)
That about sums it up, doesn't it?
Here is a link to Joseph Smith's child/teen-brides, a la Warren Jeffs, if you need a modern day reference to understand this.
Joseph Smith was both a polygamist and polyandrist, since Joseph Smith married at least 11 happily married women, in addition to his child-brides and other wives.
Here is a site, that shows at least 11 of his wives, and that 9 of his first 13 wives, counting Emma, were already married to other men.
But, according to most uneducated and carefully brainwashed and indoctrinated Mormons, this never happened, isn't important, or was commanded of their adultery promoting God of shame.
For those that dispute Joseph Smith's polygamy and polyandry,
here is a list of the majority of his wives, on Mormon owned, operated and run "Family Search.org."
What a legacy eh...something to be so proud of, and as current 2nd in command and next Mormon Prophet of fraud Thomas Monson says:
"May each of us emulate the Prophet Joseph's great example. He taught the truth; he lived the truth; he shared the truth. You possess a testimony; share it." (Be Thou an Example-April 2005 Mormon General Conference)
Does Joseph Smith sound like a moral man who set a great example and taught, lived and shared the truth and someone that you all want to emulate, along with your children?
I sure the hell hope not!!
Can you imagine what this world would be like if everyone ran around acting like Joseph Smith and doing all the disgusting, sick, illegal and perverted things that he did? Oh wait...that's exactly what Warren Jeffs was doing...acting just like Joseph Smith and following his "inspired teachings" to a PERFECT T.
Like I've said many times...if Joseph Smith were alive today, he'd be right where Warren Jeffs is...rotting in prison where he belongs.
For anyone that is interested in the topic of God and if he/she/it exists or if you can prove God's existence, I highly suggest you invest the hour and a half and watch or listen to this great debate, which was held on ABC's Nightline. The Rational Respondersdid a GREAT job taking on Kurt and Ray, from "The Way Of The Master" ministries. It's not hard to defeat the religious fanatics, when you have truth, logic, reason and common sense on your side.
The Rational Responders admit that they brought their B game, but still easily defeated Ray and Kurt and I would have to agree. He admits that they are learning and growing as they go along. Kurt and Ray are used to being on TV, with their TV show and of course Kirk Cameron grew up on TV's "Growing Pains." Kelly And Sapient, who are not used to being on TV, for millions to watch, seemed very composed and did a hell of a job considering that fact.
Everyone has to make their own decision on this topic of God, but to me, it's clear who is using logic and who is using fairy tales and fear, to threaten people with Eternal damnation, and it ain't the Atheists.
Amazing, isn't it, that it's the Atheists who seem very reasonable and show more love, inclusion, understanding and compassion for everyone, while the so called "Christians", are the hate-filled condemning people, inducing fear and threatening everyone with hellfire and Satan/Demon possession, if we don't all follow them.
I've been fighting these type of fanatical Christians for over a year now and I condemn them often, openly and strongly for their God induced hate, threats, and condemnation of innocents. These die-hard, fanatical Christians, really are pathetic!! One thing for sure, is that logic, reasoning and common sense, are something that CANNOT be a part of any organized religion and in fact, they are the complete opposite of the fairy tales and horror stories they tell.
It's amazing that Christians always state Atheists have no values or morals and no reasons to ever do anything good; when the Christians are the ones that want innocent people to burn in literal flames, for ALL eternity, if we don't follow them. Even most of Mormonism's doctrines and teachings, aren't this vile, offensive and condemning.
I have also decided to release this debate as a podcast, on my Mormon Truth Interviews Podcast, which is available for free on iTunes, so that those of you who cannot take the time to watch it, will at least be able to listen to it on your audio player, while on the way to work, or working out, etc.
I hope that everyone that watched or listened to this debate, has had their mind expanded and has learned something and enjoyed this debate and I look forward to your comments, as always.
I've taken the time over the last week, to confront a couple more missionaries or volunteers, or whatever they hell they are, over at Mormon.Org. The one I just talked to, was a complete asshole and just cut me right off, when I accused him/her of lying, which they were. Here is a linkto the other chat I had, in case you missed it.
Gee, wouldn't a representative of Jesus Christ be kinder and more loving and want to see why I thought they were lying and then express to me why they weren't lying, despite all of the evidence showing otherwise? I guess not!! By the way, the name of the person I was talking to was Adrian. Anyone else have a run-in with the friendly Adrian?
How much longer will this charade last(the cat's out of the bag dumb asses), as they must be getting bombarded by ex/anti-Mormons every single day. How many real people are actually going there to talk to them.
It must be the same bullshit day after day, being confronted with the shocking truth, then not answering our questions and telling us to read the Book of Mormon; because if it's true, Joseph Smith was a Prophet, the church is true and nothing we are asking them even matters, which is exactly what they tell me and everyone else that ventures in there.
Anyway, I'll post the 2 transcripts below so that you can all read them. The first one is about Dallin H. Oaks saying that they can't Ever criticize their leaders, even if the criticism is true and I then worked in Mountain Meadows Massacre and his admission that "without a doubt" Mormon leaders committed the slaughter.
The second one is about how they claim they don't condemn other religions, while openly condemning them from the First Vision forward, especially in the Book of Mormon. Adrian actually denied it again, right in the chat...OOPS!!
These guys know they are lying, when the truth is so obvious and clear; but they just think we are all idiots and will easily believe their den of lies and want to join the cult tomorrow.
Also, the Mormon Hierarchy has disabled the cut and paste option that used to be there in the chats, so now, all you have to do, is go up to File and click on Save as, and save it as a text file. You will have to do some editing, but at least we can still post our conversations with these brainwashed Mormons, for all the world to read.
Conversation #1:
Speak With a Missionary-Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.
Addie: Hello! What can I do for you today?
Samuel: Yeah, I was curious to know more about the Mormon faith, after watching the PBS documentary called the Mormons.
Addie: Yes. That was an interesting program. What were some of your questions/concerns?
Samuel: Well, I was wondering if you are ever able to criticize your leaders and if you are punished when you do? They talked about all of the intellectuals that were excommunicated for speaking out and that is very troubling to me. So, are you allowed to criticize your leaders, especially the Apostles or Prophet?
Samuel: From what I've discovered, Dallin H. Oaks is one of your Prophets and he said the following:
Samuel: Sorry, go ahead and then I'll post the quote by Oaks
Samuel: Are you still there? (I'd waited like 5 minutes with no response at all and there was at least a 2 minute gap after almost every question I asked them.)
Addie: We believe that when a prophet speaks he does so by revelation and speaks the word and will of the Lord. The members of our Church sustain our leaders, which means committing to support them in their decisions.Also,
Samuel: So, they can never EVER be wrong? They are perfect and infallible? Aren't they imperfect men, just like any other man? That's what I've always believed, that no one is perfect...
Addie: in that process, they have the opportunity to voice objections and oppositions to those leaders. However, there is a difference between voicing objections and speaking against established doctrine
Addie: Prophets are not perfect.
Samuel: So, you can criticize them publicly, if you feel they are wrong or out of line, without any problems?
Addie: However, when they speak as directed by revelation, which is not everything they say, we believe it is the word of God
Samuel: If Prophets are not perfect, then anyone should be able to criticize them in my opinion, including Mormons themselves, right?
Samuel: How do you or does the world know when they are speaking by revelation or just as common men that make mistakes?
Addie: We are encouraged to pray about their words when they speak. Always, they invite us to know for ourselves and asking the Lord if what they speak is the truth.They never ask us to blindly obey.
Addie: Also, they will usually inform us of their opinions
Addie: For this reason, I personally have never found reason to criticize them
Samuel: So, let's say that they are not speaking by revelation and say something that isn't true? Can you openly criticize them for it with no fear of punishment?
Samuel: So, it's all based on what someone feels, whether it's true or not? What if you feel it's revelation and someone else doesn't?
Samuel: They don't ask you to blindly obey? But what if you pray about what they've said and you feel that it's wrong? Then what? Is that a problem?
Addie: When prophet is speaking by revelation, they make it clear that revelation is the source.
Samuel: Here's my question again; if you feel, after praying, that the Prophet or Apostles are wrong in what they are saying; can you openly criticize them for it without being punished?
Samuel: Do they allow you to speak your mind, even if it's against what they are saying? You said they aren't perfect, therefore they could screw up and make mistakes, teach false things, etc, right?
Addie: Why would you want to be part of the church if you feel that the prophets and apostles are wrong?
Samuel: Well, you earlier admitted that they aren't perfect, therefore they could be wrong. Either they are perfect and infallible or they aren't, right?
Addie: I know, from personal experience that these prophets are men of God. I trust their judgment and accept that they are not perfect. But I believe that I can trust in the counsels that God gives to them.
Samuel: I'm just trying to understand this, I really am. I have a lot of friends that are Mormon and they seem to blindly obey, saying that their leaders can never make a mistake or lead them astray in anyway and that if they try, God will literally remove them, is this true?
Addie: The most important thing that we can do is to seek
Samuel: But you still haven't answered my main question; can you criticize them, ever?
Samuel: even if they are wrong?
Addie: God's guidance through prayer to know if the prophets are acting according to the will of God.
Samuel: By admitting that they are human, they can make mistakes and can you then state openly how you feel about those human mistakes and errors, thus criticizing them?
Samuel: So, you do follow them blindly?
Samuel: Why pray to understand them or know what they are saying is true, if they can't ever teach anything wrong? It seems very redundant to me to pray about something that you already know can't possibly be wrong, ever?
Samuel: Look, here's the quote from Oaks:
Addie: Samuel I'd love to answer your questions, but it's tough to answer four at a Time.
Samuel: "It's wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true."
Addie: Can I answer them one at a time?
Samuel: 4 at a time? I've been asking you the same exact question over and over, without you being willing to answer it. Again, can you openly criticize leaders of the Mormon church? I'll answer it for you, since you refuse to, and the answer is...no, because Dallin H. Oaks says you can't, even if the criticism is true and that's what troubles me greatly as an investigator and someone trying to learn more about your church.
Addie: I'm glad that you've got sincere desires to learn.
Samuel: I consider myself to be an intellectual and inquisitive person, therefore not being able to ever object to anything these imperfect men say would be hell for me and would take away my freedom of expression and thought.
Addie: One thing that Jesus taught us in Matthew Chapter 6 is that we are not to cast judment on others whether they are prophets or not. We can disagree with views that they have, but criticism is really not necessary; that is a form of judgment
Samuel: I found that comment by Oaks to be so offensive, that I about fell off of my chair. It's like he thinks that he is God or Jesus Christ and cannot ever be criticized, even it the criticism is true. Those are not the words of man who sees himself as imperfect and that's not free agency or freedom at all.
Samuel: Would you ever state Addie that no one should ever criticize you, even if the criticism is true? Do you understand why this troubles me, when earlier you admitted that they aren't perfect, yet they say that they are beyond any criticism? It seems very contradictory to me in every way.
Addie: I understand perfectly. It's alright to express your concern with those whom you are concerned with. But that issue is between you and the person you disagree with. I welcome counsel and constructive criticism, but there isn't a point in pointing out.
Addie: weakness publicly whether prophets or not.
Samuel: Also, when talking about Mountain Meadows Massacre, Dallin H. Oaks said that:
"I have no doubt, on the basis of what I have studied and learned, that Mormons, including local leaders of our church, were prime movers in that terrible episode and participated in the killing."
Samuel: So, if you disagree with the Prophet or Dallin H. Oaks for example, can you go sit down with him and discuss it in private? Do they allow any member to meet with them?
Addie: They are always welcome to letters and other forms of communication.
Samuel: So, can you publicly criticize the Prophet with "constructive criticism?"
Addie: Can I ask, what do you understand a prophet to be?
Samuel: So, let me ask you this; Dallin H. Oaks openly admits that Mormon leaders killed all of those poor people at Mountain Meadows, but you aren't allowed to criticize them for the horrible murders they committed? According to Dallin H. Oaks, even if they murder innocent men, women and children, as he has now admitted to, you CAN'T criticize them...that's insane!
Samuel: He also hopes that the Lord will forgive these murderous Mormon leaders, when I believe murder is the unforgivable and unpardonable.
Samuel: I believe a Prophet is a man of God, who speaks and acts for God
Addie: Samuel, I don't feel that you're being very sincere about listening to theanswers to your questions. Those acts of those men who committed that horrible act were not endorsed by the prophet and when he heard of their acts he was very disappointed...
Samuel: Disappointed? 120 people were slaughtered by Mormon leadership and he was disappointed? I just don't know how to overcome these major concerns, as all my friends are trying to get me to take the missionary discussions and get baptized. That's why I'm here today, to see if I can resolve these concerns with you...
Addie: with them and they were excommunicated.
Addie: The real question you need to ask is to God.
Addie: If these men speak and act for God is there reason to criticize?
Samuel: So why did Oaks say that Mormon leaders were the "prime movers" and "participated in the killings?"
Addie: He was speaking of the local leaders, not of the prophets (so like a bishop). We do not consider such men to be prophets.
Samuel: So, it's okay to publicly criticize a Bishop then? Only John D. Lee was executed or excommunicated for those crimes and there were over 100 men committing the murderers.
Addie: Do you believe that God can answer prayers?
Samuel: Okay, let me ask you this, as I've been researching this Mountain Meadows tragedy....was John D. Lee guilty of murdering these poor people or not?
Samuel:I don't believe God has to answer questions that are already answered by the facts and truth, nor do I have to ask him if they answers are already obvious and clear.
Addie: I understand your concerns, but I know that all the questions you have will be answered by a much simpler question. "Is the Book of Mormon true?"
Samuel: What?
Samuel: Mountain Meadows Massacre is discussed in the Book of Mormon?
Samuel: I had no idea...
Samuel: What part?
Addie: If the Book of Mormon is true then the church is true and so are the prophets. That act was not an act of the Church, but of misguided men, and as such really doesn't effect a person's testimony of the doctrines of the church.
Samuel: I discovered that John D. Lee was also sealed to Brigham Young too, which is strange. Back then, men sealed themselves to each other in the Mormon temple?
Addie: If you find out that the Book of MOrmon is true you will still understand that this was a horrible act that should never have taken place, but you will also know that it was not an act of God, and that the church, which tried to stop it, is of God.
Addie: I would invite you to pray and ask god of if the Book of Mormon is true with a sincere heart. Will you do that?
Samuel: So, if the Book of Mormon is true, then the Mormon church is perfect and true and has never, ever made any mistakes and their leaders are infallible and can never, ever be criticized(even if the criticism is true), and they have never made any mistakes?
Samuel: Was John D. Lee a murderer?
Addie: Samuel, will you pray with a sincere heart?
Samuel: Answer my last question please
Samuel: I'm only asking you about John D. Lee, because I don't know if you are aware or not, that in 1961, the Mormon Hierarchy fully restored his blessings and forgave him for all of those awful and tragic murders he committed, of men women, children, even babies...and that also shocks me and troubles my soul deeply. Why would they do this?
Addie: I really don't know enough about that event to give you a difinitive answer, but I do know that this church is Jesus Christ's. If you will pray with a sincere heart and faith, you will find the same.
Addie: I hope you have a great evening.
Samuel: John D. Lee was the adopted son of Brigham Young, through their sealing together in the Salt Lake City temple and he was executed for his crime of mass murder and they've now forgiven him. Why?
Samuel: Praying won't answer these questions and you never told me if Mountain Meadows is discussed in the Book of Mormon, as you seemed to indicate.
Samuel: Do you not care at all about facts or evidence?
Samuel: So, is the Mormon church the one and only true church on earth?
Addie: I care about the spirit of God. I know the Book of Mormon is true and as such, I know that the Church of Jesus Christ is the only true and living church that is guided by God himself on the earth. If you simply find that out the other questions won't...matter anymore.
Samuel: Is my church really an abomination, with false doctrines and corrupt professors, as Joseph Smith clearly indicated. You are the only people on earth that have the truth? Everyone else is guided by Satan?
Addie: Please pray. I know you'll get an answer.
Samuel: The other questions won't matter anymore? Are you serious?
Addie then cut me off and abruptly ended the conversation, refusing to answer any of my questions, insisting that the only thing that mattered, was the Book of Mormon and that "If you simply find that out that it's true, then the other questions won't matter anymore."
Now, those are the true fruits of Mormonism folks. Facts, truth, logic and reality mean nothing and all that matters is that you believe the Book of Mormon is true, end of story, if it's true, it's all true, Joseph Smith was a Prophet and the church is true, and nothing else matters.
Conversation #2:
Speak With a Missionary-Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.
Referral Support: Hello, My name is Adrian how can I help you?
Mike: Hey Adrian, where are you at?
Mike: Are you an actual missionary from the MTC?
Referral Support: were are in Utah
Mike: I figured that, but are you a student, a missionary, or what? I've heard that the folks on here are from the MTC or BYU?
Referral Support: I am a member of the Church.
Mike: Uh yeah, I figured that too...I mean what are the odds that the Mormon church would put somebody on here that wasn't even a Mormon? So, I guess you can't tell me what you are, if you're a missionary, student or whatever, which is fine.
Mike: I just wondered where I was talking to, if you were in Salt lake, Provo, etc, but obviously you aren't allowed to share that information with the public.Well, hopefully you can help me out anyway and will be more forthcoming on my other questions...
Referral Support: you are correct, I am not to share that kind of information.
Referral Support: I will do my best to answer yor questions
Mike: Sounds a little paranoid to me, since it was just a general question, but okay, hopefully they'll allow you to speak freely regarding other things.
Mike: I've always heard how secret the Mormon church is, especially regarding the temple, and I guess it's true.
Referral Support: Ok mike , I dont want to give you information about myself that is all
Mike: Anyway, I've been Catholic all my life and since moving to Utah, I've become interested in learning more about Mormons
Mike: Yeah, because I might track you down, right? LOL
Mike: whatever man
Mike: But I've read in Mormon Doctrine, which was written by one of your Apostles and also I've been reading in the book of Mormon
Referral Support: I dont want. it is simple , I am not goint to ask about your personal information.
Referral Support: ok
Mike: and it looks like you guys have really issues with Catholics or any other religion
Referral Support: we dont
Mike: Looks like we got off on a very bad foot
Mike: You don't?
Referral Support: I was catholic
Referral Support: all my family is catholic, I love them
(For some reason at this point, we were suddenly disconnected. I quickly logged back in and happened to get Adrian again and so we continued on with out conversation for a little while longer. Adrian had no idea what happened and it certainly wasn't anything I did. It must have been that Mormon God, intervening to help his servant and representative...LOL.)
Referral Support: Hi mike, I dont know what happend
Referral Support: sorry we got disconected
Mike: Yeah, me either...it just disconnected...I thought you hung up on me
Referral Support: no I didnt
Referral Support: ok , so do you have some questions
Referral Support: ?
Mike: Anyway, like I was saying, it looks to me like you guys have serious issues with Catholics or any other religion
Mike: Maybe you can help me understand somethings
Referral Support: okay
Mike: First of all, do you believe that your church is "the one and only true church" on the planet earth?
Referral Support: yes I do.
Mike: I believe the First Vision of Joseph Smith says that Jesus said, that all other churches are abominations with corrupt professors(preachers) and wrong doctrines, or something like that...
Referral Support: they are not guided by God.
Mike: So, if you have "the one and only truth", what does that say about my religion and the religions of most of my friends and family? Why do we have to become Mormon?
Mike: So, you are telling me that my religion is not guided by God? By what authority do you tell me this?
Mike: You realize that's offensive, right?
Referral Support: well, that is what I believe (No apologies of course)
Referral Support: dont take offence on that
Mike: It's funny how Mormons and your leaders always say that they never cut down any other religion...but you clearly do, by saying that you have the only truth on earth and that all the rest are abominations, corrupt and wrong.
Mike: Yeah, but your church believes that everyone needs to be a Mormon, in this life or the next, right? That's why you baptize dead people.
Mike: So, if Mormonism is "the one and only true church" on earth, then all the other religions are indeed false, right?
Referral Support: We are the only true Church, I know that. we have prophets and apostles that recieve revelation from God. All other Churches are full of great people, great feelings and amazing teachings , but lack authority to act in God's name
Mike: Do you believe that Satan runs my church and that it's of the Devil?
Mike: You believe this why? (This was an answer to their last comment)
Referral Support: no, I dont think so.
Mike: Aren't you just making the same claim that most religions make?
Referral Support: well you tell me what do you believe?
Mike: You believe in the Book of Mormon, right? Joseph said it's the most correct book on earth or something like that didn't he?
Referral Support: what do you believe about the LDS church and your church?
Mike: I don't believe that you have to belong to one particular church in order to be saved...I believe it's based on the kind of person you are and how you treat others, not whose church you call home. Referral Support: well you said you were catholic, and that is not what they believe
Mike: Well, we are talking about what you believe and preach, not what I believe and in the Catholic church, we don't go around openly condemning other churches, calling them the church of the devil and abominations, whores of all the earth and Mothers of Harlots and we try to be kind to everyone.
Referral Support: but what is your doctrine?
Mike: So, you tell me what my doctrine is, since you are so well informed about it
Referral Support: you certanly believe exactly what you are criticizing from the LDS church
Mike: That unless you are a Catholic, you're screwed? That's what I believe?
Referral Support: the catholic Church to be the only true church.
Mike: Well, at least we don't preach that Mormons and all other churches are the church of Satan and the whore of all the earth
Referral Support: we dont prach about anybody else, We actually dont preach about others at all. (Can you believe that shit? I can't believe they actually said this? Now tell me that they didn't know they were outright lying when they made this statement!!)
Mike: Still there?(There was a very long pause before their last comment and this comment of mine, as they both popped up at the same time.) You believe in the Book of Mormon, don't you? Well, it greatly insults me and any other religion out there, yet your church claims that we are all evil
Mike: Saying you don't preach about other religions is an outright lie and you know it
Referral Support: Mike , is not a lie, and please remember what your religion claims before you criticize the LDS church for what it claims
1 Nephi 14:10.....Behold there are save two churches only, one is the church of the lamb of God and the other is the church of the DEVIL, wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the MOTHER OF ABOMINATIONS; and she is the WHORE of all the earth.
1 Nephi 13:34...wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that ABOMINABLE church, which is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, saith the Lamb--I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.
Referral Support: Take care
Mike: Where are you going?!! I wasn't done...
==========
That was the abrupt end of the chat. I guess they can't handle "the real truth", can they? Hypocritical jackasses!!
I look forward to everyone's comments on these chats.
I was a faithful member of the Mormon Church for over 30 years and I never doubted that it was true, not even for a second. I served an honorable two year mission in Argentina, went to BYU, was married in the temple and about 6 years ago, I began a journey that led me to the truth about Mormonism; that it is a complete lie and total fraud!! I only want to help others to discover what I have found and to know the "REAL TRUTH" and then be able to better deal with the pain of their discovery. I'm now an Ex-Mormon and an Atheist. As I always like to say..THE TRUTH SHALL SET US FREE, because TRUTH IS FREEDOM!!
