MP3 File
For anyone that is interested in the topic of God and if he/she/it exists or if you can prove God's existence, I highly suggest you invest the hour and a half and watch or listen to this great debate, which was held on ABC's Nightline. The Rational Respondersdid a GREAT job taking on Kurt and Ray, from "The Way Of The Master" ministries. It's not hard to defeat the religious fanatics, when you have truth, logic, reason and common sense on your side.
The Rational Responders admit that they brought their B game, but still easily defeated Ray and Kurt and I would have to agree. He admits that they are learning and growing as they go along. Kurt and Ray are used to being on TV, with their TV show and of course Kirk Cameron grew up on TV's "Growing Pains." Kelly And Sapient, who are not used to being on TV, for millions to watch, seemed very composed and did a hell of a job considering that fact.
Everyone has to make their own decision on this topic of God, but to me, it's clear who is using logic and who is using fairy tales and fear, to threaten people with Eternal damnation, and it ain't the Atheists.
Amazing, isn't it, that it's the Atheists who seem very reasonable and show more love, inclusion, understanding and compassion for everyone, while the so called "Christians", are the hate-filled condemning people, inducing fear and threatening everyone with hellfire and Satan/Demon possession, if we don't all follow them.
I've been fighting these type of fanatical Christians for over a year now and I condemn them often, openly and strongly for their God induced hate, threats, and condemnation of innocents. These die-hard, fanatical Christians, really are pathetic!! One thing for sure, is that logic, reasoning and common sense, are something that CANNOT be a part of any organized religion and in fact, they are the complete opposite of the fairy tales and horror stories they tell.
It's amazing that Christians always state Atheists have no values or morals and no reasons to ever do anything good; when the Christians are the ones that want innocent people to burn in literal flames, for ALL eternity, if we don't follow them. Even most of Mormonism's doctrines and teachings, aren't this vile, offensive and condemning.
I have also decided to release this debate as a podcast, on my Mormon Truth Interviews Podcast, which is available for free on iTunes, so that those of you who cannot take the time to watch it, will at least be able to listen to it on your audio player, while on the way to work, or working out, etc.
Enjoy everyone!!
I hope that everyone that watched or listened to this debate, has had their mind expanded and has learned something and enjoyed this debate and I look forward to your comments, as always.
Samuel the Utahnite
54 comments:
Thanks for finding and posting these Samuel. I enjoyed watching them.
Just out of curiosity, do you consider yourself an athiest now?
You're welcome al Jordan and thanks for your great blog. I finally added a link to your blog in my sidebar and thanks for adding me on your blog as well. Sorry it took so long, as I hadn't done much with my template for quite a while, due to lack of time.
I haven't heard back yet from Mike or Hyrum, so I don't know what's going on with those guys, but I really want to get their podcasts posted again on iTunes, for everyone to hear. We'll see what happens. I can always remove them, if they don't want them up down the road.
Hey, thanks for that great list of books too, as I still have a ton of reading, studying and research ahead of me, as I've always thirsted for knowledge, which Mormonism never quenched, since we were in such a tiny, little box.
Now, as far as whether I consider myself to be an Atheist now...I would say I believe exactly like Sapient explained in the video; he doesn't rule out that there is some type of God or being out there, that created us or the world, but we don't know who or what it/he/she is. Regular Atheists are very reasonable, logical and realistic in their beliefs and don't state "I know there is no God", like the fanatical religious zealots state they "know there is a god." I would classify myself as an Agnostic Atheist, if that makes sense.
In other words, we are completely open to all possibilities, but will await the proof, before declaring that WE KNOW something, like whether there's a God or not.
One thing I know for pretty damn sure, is that the God as defined in the Bible, the mass murderer and promoter of genocide and the mass slaughter of innocent men, women and children, and many other horrors, through Prophets like Moses; can't possibly be that God or like they said, they'd rather be in hell for all eternity. Amen to that!!
I loved the part where Kelly stated that we are ALL Atheists regarding all the other Gods, if you are a Christian or believe in some other God, which automatically excludes all of the other Gods.
Mormons always explain this away, by claiming that everyone else in the world, that believes and worships a different God, actually believes in the Mormon God, but they just don't know it...yet...LOL...remember hearing that one or even teaching it?
I also loved how Sapient pointed out that we are ALL born Atheists and have to be taught to be Theists...isn't that the truth?
This goes back to what I always say, especially to the Evangelicals and radical Mormon apologists...that our parents could have raised us to be die-hard Nazis, Skin-heads, terrorists, suicide bombers, etc, etc, but does that make it right? Just because we were raised one way, makes it the "one and only way" and we should never even dare ask if it was the right way or not?
That's where the brainwashing and deep indoctrination from birth or conversion kicks in and they can't see past their faces.
I just felt that this was a great and fair debate for everyone to be able to watch and maybe have some better insights into what they believe. In this world of brainwashed fanatics we are living in, especially the Mormons; anything that can provoke deeper thoughts or maybe break through the Mormon burning bosom blinder, is a great thing.
Anyway, I'm glad you liked it and I hope this helps you understand better where I'm coming from. I plan on going much deeper into this on "My Journey To the Truth" podcasts, that will go from the beginning until now and explain exactly what I believe and why.
Also, I loved your ex-Mormon testimony...that was great and very fitting!! And that CD that they brought your kids says it all and is truly unbelievable. But yeah, there's no brainwashing or indoctrination going on, that's just a myth started by us evil, vile, disease germ anti/ex-Mormons.
For those that haven't gone and checked out Al Jordan's blog yet, I highly suggest you do so.
Take care Al Jordan, I love your insights and don't be a stranger,
Samuel
so this is your famous blog spot?
impressive
Yep, this is it and the church office building and Farms, are on it quite a bit..but I know, I know, nobody gives a shit about anything I do or say, nobody ever reads my blog, nobody takes me seriously, I don't have Mormon apologists reading it everyday, the blog counter is fake and nobody has ever listened to my podcast and 30,000 downloads a month is also bullshit, as is my bandwidth counter, right?
Just wanted to get that out there for everyone to know that you are saying about me and my worthless efforts, that nobody even knows about.
But welcome to Mormon truth...no go ahead and respond to the racism questions I had to ask you 5 times before you would even admit that they had been taught.
You said something like yes they taught them, but not in the way I describe or understand it...anyway, enlighten me and everyone else, we want to know how they are acceptable and make perfect sense in the big scheme of things.
Samuel
First off, lets get some ground rules in place, or common ground you could say, so that we have a common belief in something so that at least we can have an intelligent debate
Because obviously the things that are taught are taught from doctrine from the Bible and also the BOM, so if you dont even have a fundamental belief in god or the bible, its gonna very hard to have any sort of educated conversation, because all we will be doing is arguing opinion, which is just peoples opinion not truth, so we need to have something in place that we both believe as truth that we can use to judge both of our remarks, fair enough, so what part of christianity do you believe in? If any, or are you atheist? Do you believe in God, or what?
I first want to say that you have absolutely no clue how many people I've helped over the last 2 years, including single men and women, older couples, older singles, families, younger folks, etc and I really don't think you care, because you think all of us ex-Mormons are just idiots and losers and spewing all lies, that we got off of some anti site.
I've helped countless people and I guess I could go through all my emails and have people start Emailing you, telling you how much I've helped them and then maybe you'd believe me, maybe not.
Also, if I ask you a questions, ANSWER IT and don't make me ask you 5 times, because that really, really pisses me off.
I have no problem having intelligent debate, as I do it all the time, but you didn't seem capable of such a level.
Go back to my podcast with the apologist Jared(downloaded around 7,000 times, each episode and still counting), as we got along just fine, because he didn't start accusing me of lying and making things up right out of the box and he actually owned up to much of what troubles me, which you haven't shown the ability to do so far...so let's hope you can show something new.
i will answer every question you ask, like I said first we need common ground, what are we both agreeing on as truth? If i quote the bible you will discount it? Correct, so how do you want me to explain certain doctrines of the church, If i cant use the actual sources that were used to create that doctrine, if you dont want to have a common ground then we can argue opinion, thats fine with me also.
Actually, it's very easy for me to debate with the Bible, BOM, D&C, etc, and I can debate the most fanatical Mormon or the most fanatical Evangelical and all I do is hold you to your teachings and it really doesn't matter what I believe or don't, because it is you that has the burden of proof, to show me and everyone, why your church is the "one and only true church on earth."
I just hold you accountable for what your scriptures teach, along with your Prophets and Apostles, all the way back to 1820, when it all began.
I use logic, reason and common sense and don't even need any scriptures to poke massive holes through organized religion as a whole.
It is you, whose entire religion is based on such books, needs them in order to prove your case, of why your church is the "only true one" and why all the others are abominations, whores of all the earth, etc.
As for blacks and the priesthood, its a very simple answer, it deals with the pre-existence when thing were set aside to happen at certain times, hence the woman who asked Jesus to heal her kid, he said no, she was not of the house of israel, was he being racist? NO Read Duet 32:8... Things were to happen at certain times, so when god wanted thing to happen, they happen, its simple
You can quote the Bible for you, but justifying Mormonism, based on the "as far as translated correctly Bible", doesn't work too well for me. I mean are you going to use the standard version or the "enlightened" Joseph Smith version of the Bible, which changes things quite drastically in some cases.
Look, I believe all organized religion is BS and so there's nothing in the Bible that will move me or convince me of anything, as I've spend thousands of hours researching all of this at a very deep level, for the last 2 years.
You can quote it all you want, but then you have to answer the questions I ask you about the Bible, that make no sense and to me, prove it to be absolutely false and nothing but a book written by a bunch of men, probably delusional and power hungry. In most cases, no one even knows who wrote anything that is contained in the Bible and that's a fact and very troublesome.
Mormons take things VERY literally in the Bible and that really puts you guys into a deep corner that's hard to escape from. Even many Christian religions have accepted some things as allegorical or symbolic in nature now, but Mormons keep going forward, stating it happened literally and is a fact.
So, if we aren't punished for Adam's transgressions, according to Mormon doctrine, why were blacks, in Mormonism, punished for Cain's transgression, in Mormon doctrine?
See the difference between me and you is i believe in being able to communicate with god, obviously the bible has been translated numerous times and some things would be lost, I still dont know if you even believe in Christ? Do you?
Also, why does your Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, sometimes know why blacks were banned from the Priesthood and why it happened and then other times says, over and over, "I don't know." How can a Prophet of God not know? You know he knows, because other times, he explains it differently...like "they interpreted that doctrine that way."
The most troubling exchange was this one, on 60 minutes with Mike Wallace and this video is posted on Youtube for you to watch, if you doubt it:
MW: Church policy had it that blacks had the mark of Cain. Brigham Young said, "Cain slew his brother, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin."
GBH: It's behind us. Look, that's behind us. Don't worry about those little flecks of history.
MW: Skeptics will suggest, "Well, look, if we're going to expand, we can't keep the blacks out."
GBH: Pure speculation. [Laughs.]
It seems that he changes his opinions like the wind, which is definitely leading astray in my book, which he is forbidden to do, because God will remove him if he tries....but he still does it and nothing happens to him...he's 97 now.
You expect him to be able to know everything at all times about every situation, you called him about about the tsunami. People have agency, thats why bad things happen to good people, should god stop everything bad from ever happening, we would be like little puppets at his beck and call, what would be the purpose of our existence? Ya blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood for some time, was it changed? Yes, why did God not allow them to have until that time? Who knows, pray and ask him Sam.
As for Adams trangression, all were affected by his decision, everyone.
Here are the quotes that are a little off topic but staying with Hinckley to show how he says it's either true or a fraud and that there's no middle ground and no room for error.
This first one is from the Gordon B. Hinckley speech, “The Marvelous Foundation of Our Faith,” Ensign, Nov. 2002, 78:
We declare without equivocation that God the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, appeared in person to the boy Joseph Smith.
When I was interviewed by Mike Wallace on the 60 Minutes program, he asked me if I actually believed that. I replied, “Yes, sir. That’s the miracle of it.”
That is the way I feel about it. Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.
Now from Gordon B. Hinckley's speech, “Loyalty,” Ensign, May 2003, 58
Now may I say a word concerning loyalty to the Church.
We see much indifference. There are those who say, "The Church won't dictate to me how to think about this, that, or the other, or how to live my life."
No, I reply, the Church will not dictate to any man how he should think or what he should do. The Church will point out the way and invite every member to live the gospel and enjoy the blessings that come of such living. The Church will not dictate to any man, but it will counsel, it will persuade, it will urge, and it will expect loyalty from those who profess membership therein.
When I was a university student, I said to my father on one occasion that I felt the General Authorities had overstepped their prerogatives when they advocated a certain thing. He was a very wise and good man. He said, "The President of the Church has instructed us, and I sustain him as prophet, seer, and Revelator and intend to follow his counsel."
Then he said:
Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is NO MIDDLE GROUND. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is NOTHING.
So my point is, it's either ALL true or a fraud, just like Hinckley says, with NO MIDDLE GROUND, which leaves you very little wiggle room, if any.
Now, I'll respond to your comment about Christ.
And lets please stick to the topic, I am not gonna dance around answering a million differents questions
I believe that Jesus was a man that probably lived, but even that is up for some serious debate if you really look at the actual history and all of the very famous people, that wrote thousands of pages, that are documented, and they never mentioned Jesus one time. This is fact.
So, why wouldn't they even mention him at all, especially when he supposedly went crazy in the temple, over turned the tables, etc, is pretty sketchy to me and there were tons of Jesus like guys going around, doing all of the same things he was doing. Ever heard of any of this?
And no, I don't believe any God has anything to do with any of us or anything happening on this world and that he doesn't talk to us. I believe hearing voices in our head, thinking they are some invisible God we've never ever seen, that helps protect us from the other invisible Satan, who's out to get us every second of every day, is quite delusional and unhealthy and I know, because I once strongly believed it too, with all of my heart.
Hey, I mentioned it was off topic, as a courtesy and explained why, so chill your damn jets and deal with it. You have no middle ground to rest on, according to your current Prophet Hinckley and I was just pointing that out. You don't have to respond, but I can post whatever the hell I want, to make whatever point I want...so just ignore it if you want and I want an answer, I'll just ask you again.
I dont need a middle ground, and I will follow your same lead, so deal with it also, So let me get this straight, just so I understand your point of view, we are arguing the influence of GOD on certain men that gave sermons about what they were influenced on, all the while you in no way shape or form believe in god or christ at ALL. So that is like me arguing with you about whats on the moon, when I dont beleive we ever even landed on the moon! Your putting the cart before the horse. It seems your issue should be with christianity as a whole, and any religion that deals with god. In Hinduism, they place COWS in value over their woman, Islamic woman are not allowed to be in public without covering thier faces.
So should our debate be on whether God exists? Or wether a GBH communicates with a GOD that you dont think exists.
And YES the statement you posted by GBH about no middle ground is true, and I believe that wholeheartedly, and you are gonna prove me wrong how? By pointing out facts about Christ and religion that you dont believe in? By quoting quotes from prophets that made those quotes from religious documents that you dont feel are from GOD? Because you dont feel there is a GOD at all? Do you see why I am confused with your logic?
Samuel,
You will be doing alot of people a great favour putting Mike and Hyrum's Podcasts back online ..
I have them too and they are great .... they helped me alot not to get sucked into Mormonism .... The church can be very persuasive and draw unsuspecting people in with their 'Fake' Love , although well meaning on their part , its only objective is to bring folk in , they are obsessed with getting converts . I think they all have doubts themselves , so when they get a convert they probably think to themsleves it could be true afterall .
I would have been a good catch for them , the first new convert who's either not a desperate African Asylum Seeker or a person who's life is a mess and needs mormonism.. They can see that I can be as good as them but it rattles them that I won't get baptised ! lol
Well I don't need the church and neither do my friends and family .
Well nearly two years of investigating has cleared my mind that its not a restored church and the History of the Church leaders and their teachings is a disgrace and we are supposed to believe that its all lead by Jesus himself ? something my conscience couldn't accept !
Elder Joseph, Let me ask you a question, if you wanted to learn how to be a barber, would you go to a mechanic? NO, so if you want to learn how to become closer to GOD, do you go through someone who has no belief in God or Christ? Explain please
Joshsuth
The only true thing I've heard Gordon Hinckley say is " I don't know "," I don't know " !!
He just lies about polygamy in his Interviews . He didn't know if the church teaches that God was once a man !
Its a big joke ......... and we're supposed to believe this man talks with God ?
You read the little posts this guy makes and you think its the word of GOD. Its crazzy, you know he does not even BELIEVE IN GOD!!!! Does that not sink into your head? Yet you come to him for advice about god and religion? Does that not sound wierd to you?
Sam, arguing about mormonism is out of the question with you, we should probably start with religion 101, rather than jumping straight to why blacks could not have the priesthood. So according to you if there was a God, nothing bad would ever happen, no one would ever feel pain, or happiness, no death, nothing. No one would never harm one another, nothing would ever happen, so this argument would have to begin as to if there is a plan or a purpose to be here. As for why you chose mormonism, I am confused, it seems that you should be focusing on christianity as a whole, not just mormons, I am sure you could dig up all sorts of garbage on almost any religion in the world today, the internet is full of RELIABLE sources of information. It seems that your issue deals with anyone that believes in God as a whole, and maybe you feel Mormons are the easiest to attack.
Hey welcome Elder Joseph and you'd better listen to Joshsuth, because he knows me better than I know myself. In fact, he knows all about us evil anti-Mormons and we lie about everything and only use bogus anti-sources, which must include all of the books I've used that are official Mormon doctrine and for sale at Deseret Book, Jesus' one and only true bookstore. You'd better not be my friend or associate with me, because I don't believe in his Mormon God or the God of the Bible.
I'm very dangerous Elder Joseph and he is trying to warn you as a Mormon, because he has the "spirit of discernment" and represents the only true God, as a member of the "one and only true church on earth."
Funny isn't it Josh, that I haven't told you who should be your friends or who should associate with you...just who the hell do you think you are? Just because I don't believe in your God, I'm what, evil, vile, stupid, dangerous? Explain why it's so bad for Elder Joseph to associate with me? You don't think he's done his own research, doesn't have a mind of his own and just sits there like a little baby birdy, waiting for me to bring him his worm, like you do with Hinckley? You insult him and don't even realize it, as if you are the beacon of truth.
Oh and where did Elder Joseph say that he saw what I say as the "word of God?" A little exaggeration there eh? Come on...he never said any such thing and you know it, so get back on topic Josh and don't make accusations for which you have no support or evidence of. It makes you look really bad.
Okay, back to the topics on hand, before we were rudely interrupted by your unnecessary commentary Josh.
The transgression of Adam occured while in the Garden of Eden, which as you pointed out was necessary for the plan of God(which GOD you dont beleive exists)to happen. So you do know what the consequence was of Adam when he ate the Fruit right? So I will ask you Sam what was the consequence of Adam eating the fruit?
Now as for the transgression of Cain, as you know it occured long after they left the Garden, long after Adam had transgressed and caused what he did, so the curse was put on them so that they could be distinguished from the others.
This is your comment "Funny isn't it Josh, that I haven't told you who should be your friends or who should associate with you...just who the hell do you think you are?" Please read Sam, never in my comments did I tell him who to be friends with, I have many non-member friends, and friends that dont believe in GOD. I simply asked him "Elder Joseph, Let me ask you a question, if you wanted to learn how to be a barber, would you go to a mechanic?" So once again please dont put words in my mouth. Thanks
Now your quote
"Funny isn't it Josh, that I haven't told you who should be your friends or who should associate with you...just who the hell do you think you are?"
Does this statement not contradict your whole entire BLOG? LOL Thats all this site is dedicated to, to tell people not to associate or become MORMONS? To influence people away from mormons? It sure seems that way to me!
Again, you are clueless in everything you just said in your last comment. I was a freaking(toned it down for your sensitive Mormon eyes) for over 30 years, did 4 years of seminary, served a 2 year, honorable mission, graduated from BYU and got married in the temple and had plenty of responsible callings, just short of being in a Bishopric.
So, I started with Mormonism, because that was what I was my whole life and just over the last year, have I taken a look at Christianity and all organized religion as a whole. So, I should just scrap anything I've done up until now, which has all been part of my journey and just focus on Christianity now?
You see, I consider Mormonism to be a very dangerous cult, that divides and destroys individuals and families and that's what I was my whole life and I know it inside and out and it will always be my primary focus. If I had time to do blogs on the JWs, SDAs, Moonies, etc, I would, but I don't have time.
I've lost best friends, one of over 30 years and family members, for simply asking them if they knew Joseph Smith was a polygamist. They called me a damn liar and refused to look at the evidence that I was telling the truth. They said that I should be ashamed of myself for telling such lies.
My niece was taught that polygamy started and ended with Brigham Young in that year of seminary and if you go to the "official" Joseph Smith website, it would confirm that he was never a polygamist, since it makes no mention of them and just his loving wife Emma, who he lied to as he committed adultery behind her back. Joseph Smith denied he was a polygamist till the day he died. He was a liar, plain and simple.
Oh, and I don't need religion 101, but you desperately need logic 101 and how to escape a brainwashing cult 101. Sound fair?
I could have sworn that you said:
joshsuth said...
You read the little posts this guy makes and you think its the word of GOD. Its crazzy, you know he does not even BELIEVE IN GOD!!!! Does that not sink into your head? Yet you come to him for advice about god and religion? Does that not sound wierd to you?
Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:23:00 PM
My bad, I realize now that wasn't you...sorry about that and yeah, I just made it up, like everything else I talk about, that I just get off of anti sites, since I'm too dumb in your eyes, like Elder Joseph, to do my own research.
Do you treat your non-Mormon friends like you treat me and Elder Joseph? Do you arrogantly assume they are idiots, because you have the "one and only truth?"
joshsuth
you said " if you wanted to learn how to be a barber, would you go to a mechanic? NO, so if you want to learn how to become closer to GOD, do you go through someone who has no belief in God or Christ? Explain please "
I wanted to know about the Mormon church so I wnet and still do and have done for nearly two years now ..
But they didn't tell me the truth ...
1 the Missionaries don't themselves the real version , I teach them about a Head in a hat and its a shocker to them like it was to me especailly when we learned about an Urim and Thummim and how honest the church is ?
2 Those who do know , then choose to keep quiet . So either way I don't trust the church anymore , simple as that ..
You might ask why do I keep going ? Well have many friends there now and some rely on me for help and rides to church etc
This is what you do , you befriend people , love bomb them , tell them they have grown alot , tell them they are feeling the spirit but haven't noticed .In fact you'l say anything to get a convert or retain one who was silly enough to fall for the missionary sales patter and extreme pressure to baptise .
The church isn't true and you will know that someday too .
And before you are tempted to say my view doesn't make a difference , you should see my missionaries , how much they have grown since studying with me ! they are feeling a different kind of spirit now , the spirit of real truth .
Have I not responded to you logically?I answered every question that you have asked me. Obviously we dont agree on alot of points, You dont believe in God, I do. Sorry that you had such a hard time as a mormon, I have personally enjoyed every minute, it brings my family closer together, makes me happy and thats all that really matters to me. I believe in it wholeheartedly, and the church has always been there for me. So that sucks you had such a bad experience.
Elder Joseph, I am sure you are teaching the missionaries alot, you need to realize, I have been hearing this stuff forever, we have horns and hoofs, we all have multiple wives!
Let me ask you a question, if its such a miserable place, why do your friends keep going, why does anyone keep going, if its bad as you say it is, then why would anyone go? Oh were brainwashed, come on, please, give us some credit. If the church is so bad, then you better stop taking your friends, you better save them. I talked to thousands just like you and sam on my mission, so its entertaining talking to you guys, i dont come in here expecting to change anyones mind, i enjoy debating this topic, but you should find something that makes you happy then, cause its nice to have something that makes you feel good, whether it be the Mormon church, or your own way of keeping in touch with God.
Sam you never answered my question about the consequence we recieved from Adams transgression, also, what do we need to do to overcome that transgression? Since you know so much about our doctrine, you can show everyone on here how knowledgable about the church you are. Awaiting your respopnse.
Josh
Joshsuth
I don't bring my friends to church . I bring the church members who I've made friends with while investigating and I've helped rescue one convert and another one has my Grant Palmer book now !
I've done alot of research , alot of prayer and I get only one answer and that is to be ' Honest '.
I can't join a church which has taught the American Indians that they are descended from Lehi when they simply have not... Its a tragedy and an injustice to make converts of them on this fasle teaching ..
The church needs to apologise to them and explain that The Book Of Mormon is false and they are sorry about the mistake . But instead they will arrogantly continue as if nothing is wrong and that they are Gods only Representatives speaking in truth .
They haven't taught a truth since it all began , because there is no truth in them . If it wasn't so tragic it would be a great comedy.
I listened to Samuel Podcasts and he is telling the real truth about the church and I hope you will do also one day ....
your analogy of do we go to a mechanic for a haircut ?
Do we go to Mormon Church to learn the truth ? No we don't , we learn a bogus version of what really happened and we learn how to praise Joseph Smith for dragging God and Jesus out of a 1700 year holiday ?
So what happens someday Josh, when your wife or one of your kids or your best friend discovers the church is a complete fraud, based on lies, adultery, racism, sexism, all justified through the Bible, BOM, POGP and the D&C?
Will you condemn or abandon them, will you harass them to return, will you warn them that they are throwing away their eternal salvation? Will treat them as you treated me earlier, giving them absolutely no credibility whatsoever? Or, will you allow them to make their own choices and respect them, even knowing that you'll never see them again in the next life, unless your drop down from your Celestial glory to see them.
Everything is great in Mormon-land, as long as everyone stays in line, believing and doesn't step out of "the Village." When someone actually researches and uses common sense and discovers the fraud...their life of hell begins and they are the persecuted ones. The church has call centers that do nothing but try to track down the so called "in-transit members", in order to reactivate them and get their tithing and offering money flowing back in.
Do you recall the talk a couple of years ago, by Lynn G. Robbins? He said when given a choice of feeding your family or paying your tithing....drum roll please...you PAY YOUR TITHING, of course.
Would you do that Josh? Would you starve your family, in order to pay tithing? I'm thinking that yes, you would do that, probably in a heartbeat.
Its past midnight London time so i'll catch up with you all tomorrow ...
CTR ! lol that means be honest as well , even about the church to Investigators .
Sam please answer my questions and stop using little analogies....You claim to be an expert on our doctrine, you brought up the transgression of Adam, so please answer my questions. As for if my family member left I would support them, my sister is currently inactive, but I still love her.
Please answer my questions
Oh sorry, I forgot to answer that one. Well, considering that I went through the temple probably 40 times or so, I think I might know the answer...what do you think?
I'll just use what is said and taught in the temple, since that is the most official version, right?
From what I remember, God/Father says they will die and Satan tells them that they will become wise and shall not die but will be as the Gods, knowing good and evil.
So Eve at the fruit and had her eyes opened and then told Adam to eat and he didn't want to, but then finally did eat it, because he didn't want to be left alone in the garden, like Even told him would happen and he wanted to be able to multiply and replenish the earth, which they obviously couldn't do, if they were separated.
Adam then eats the fruit and says that it's better to go through sorrow and know the difference between good and evil, etc.
The official doctrine states that when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, the change that took place in their bodies, was the blood formed in them and now they could die, feel physical pain, etc.
They were just flesh and bone and then became flesh and blood. If you want to take it further, Brigham Young preached many times, that Adam was God your Father and that ADAM was GOD, which became the famous Adam-God doctrine, that Spencer W. Kimball(and McConkie) both declared was false doctrine and that someone would be condemned for believing it.
So, I'll end this segment by asking you if Brigham Young led the church astray or not? If it was false doctrine, according to another Prophet and a Prophet was preaching it as fact...hmm...looks like leading astray to me and is pretty simple.
So, did God remove Brigham Young for this?
I would be more than glad to provide the very specific quotes of Brigham Young preaching this doctrine of Adam-God, if you doubt me or aren't familiar with it, which I'm sure you are.
Did that answer your question and was that what you were looking for?
I am an expert on true Mormon doctrine, probably far more than you are and I was responding to your question while you were waiting and I do have some other things going on in my house right now, so chill it dude...did you read it yet?
What "little analogies?" Asking you if you would starve your family and pay your tithing? That's a perfectly good question and you should own up to it and answer it. You too ashamed to say that you'd starve your family?
One of your servants of God, a Seventy, preached this doctrine in a General Conference, which is living scripture to you and it was approved by King Hinckley himself...so what's the problem?
Be more specific as to what you're referring to in the future, so that I don't have to guess and go off on something that isn't even what you were referring to. It will keep the conversation more fluid if you could do that for me.
Have a great night Elder Joseph and thanks for stopping in!!
May Joseph Smith look over and protect you tonight from Kolob...LOL!!
Well, this one is taking you a long time and we'll have to continue this at another time, because I have to make dinner, feed the kids and then get ready for my Skypecast, which you are welcome to join. It will be at 10 PM Mountain time.
Take care and I'll talk to you again some time and just respond to whatever you leave here next and we'll go from there.
Samuel
You did not answer my question, Go read Alma to find the answer, I asked what the consequence was, not what happened to thier bodies, what the consequence was, I will give you a hint, there were 2 deaths associated with the fall of Adam, this is concerning the first one, I am surprised you did not know the answer to that, are you sure you studied mormonism for 30 years, you should of studied this forever on your mission, its covered in the 2nd discussion, anyways awaiting your answer, I will give you the answer to Adam-God theory also. Thanks
Josh
As for starving my family, I would pay my tithing, because you(THE MORMON EXPERT) should be very familiar with the church welfare system, which helps provide food and those types of things to the members who need it, I am sure you could find that info on the internet somewhere. So pleas understand how the church works before you use your "little analogies" to prove nothing. Thanks
Dude...come on, you know that I know the fucking answer and now you are just playing games and reverting back to asshole mode again, from over on Youtube and I'm glad you did, so that everyone can see it here too. I thought I'd been pretty decent, but then you have to be the arrogant prick that I know so well. You want to revert back to that, then so will I, as I treat others as they treat me and no better. It took you over 20 minutes, to come up with that? By the way, I read the Book of Mormon 12 times on my mission-twice in English and 10 times in Spanish and many times since and they are marked up like a Christmas tree.
I gave about every detail and then some, as everyone can read and obviously they died spiritually, which is a given(any dumb-ass would get that from what I said) and what caused the blood to flow into their bodies.
Everyone knows that the BOM preaches that if they hadn't eaten the fruit, that they would have lived in the garden for all eternity, playing with the Lions and sheep, like they were little babies with no fucking clue what they were doing there and they wouldn't have had kids that would have sex with each other and maybe even Mommy and Daddy. Good thing God/Adam, had Satan, his other son, come down and trick them, right? Like I always say, thank God for Satan, because you religious fanatics, would be nothing and no where, not even existing without him. Hurry, run...he's gonna get you man!!
I guess that was like a victory for you...is that how you work it? I'll ask you about something and if you don't mention the very specific and exact thing I want, I'll run and declare victory and say, see, see everyone...he doesn't know shit, after all those years in the church...grow up...you're pathetic, you really are!!
I'll dumb it down for you:
Eve was tricked by the serpent Satan and then convinced Adam to eat, so that SHE DIDN'T HAVE TO BE ALONE, because she died spiritually and he needed to die spiritually too, so that they could have sex, have children and then have sex with their children or their children with each other, basically a God-ordained orgy, so that they could multiply and replenish the earth through God promoted incest.
Did you get it? I can't believe how ridiculous and pathetic you really are!!
Oh yeah and then about 2,000 years later, God, who knows the beginning from the end, MURDERED through DROWNING, every person on the entire earth, that came from this in-breeding of Adam and Eve and kids, except for 8 people on the ark. Oops...I didn't mention the animals, so I didn't know there were animals on the ark, right?
I hope that everyone here saw what this Mormon Apologist Josh tried to pull on me, which is typical of these dishonest, pathetic Mormon apologists. They pull shit like this, after basically getting schooled 25 different ways and then they run and tell everyone about their victory.
Of course, I won't allow this bullshit and I'm glad that we have this example for everyone to see. Of course, I never learned anything about this in my 30 years and I'm an idiot....LOL!!
By the way, I did mention that after eating the fruit, they could now die physically, according to the cult doctrine of Mormonism.
Finally Josh, Mr. "little analogy himself", please describe how the "welfare system" works in South and Central America. Describe it in detail for me and if you leave out one little detail, you're a dumb ass who doesn't know shit...LOL!!
A few last questions and you'd better get these right on too, or I'll declare your stupidity again:
Who is the Father of Jesus Christ? Did the Father of Jesus have carnal/physical intercourse with Marie and who was she the polygamist wife of? Where did the seeds and animals here on earth come from originally and who does Joseph's Mary actually belong to and who is she with now?
I could go on, but we'll see what level your deep knowledge of Mormonism goes to.
Oh and no surprise that you'd starve your family and blindly follow and bow your head and say yes. Maybe they have you bow your heads and say yes, out of the shame you should be feeling? Ya think?
I hope for your families sake, if it ever comes to that, that your Bishop isn't an asshole or new, trying to impress the Stake President.
All I wanted was the answer to my question, not some long drawn out degrading of a "mormon apologist" or however you spell, yes because of adams transgression we could die physically which the ressurrection of Christ overcame, not that Christ means anything to you at all.
I get the feeling that as a member you must have had no self-esteem, just wander around the church feeling sorry for yourself, so you develop a blog and solicit donations to your cause.
As for getting schooled 25 different ways, could you please point out to the 5 people that comment on your blogs, where you schooled me?
And you never answered why you got mad at me for asking Elder why he would come to you, you critized me for telling him who to be friends with, but at the same time, your doing that to people about mormons!! So explain yourself. And its kinda funny how many people we are captivating on this blog, I think a total of 1 person besides you and I have been on here.
As for your welfare system here is a link you can read, http://www.acfnewsource.org/religion/mormon_welfare.html
Now I know that the church does not do near as much as Mormontruth.blogstop to help those in need, I am sure you donate millions of dollars to those in need.
I also enjoyed your post on IM the missionaries, your catholic?? LOL Since when, would that be considered a LIE? And you were calling Adrian a LIAR, and a HYPOCRITE, but at the same time you are lying to her, so does that make you a LIAR and a HYPOCRITE? Please answer that question, I am excited to here your response, it should be good. I am sure you will rant and rave and call me names, I am just curious as to your response.
Joshsuth
Is the Book Of Mormon a literal history of Israelites coming to the Americas and the American Indians being the pricipal ancestors of Lehi ?
If so How do you explain the fact that the Indians look like Siberian/Mongolian ASIANS and have similar features tothem and their DNA matches them as well for ancestory .
Also why are Siberians dark skinned like their Indian counterparts in America .if the book of Mormon curse on Lamenites is true then it must have reached Siberia/Mongolia as well !
Is it possible that sometime in the future , your church will anounce the Book Of Mormon to be fiction , some kind of long parable and that its had its time and now you will focus on the bible and become a Christian denomination instead ?
I can't see a future in this church as it it .Its having to lie for converts .. The Indians and Polynesians are not Israelites ...
The whole thing is a hoax from Joseph Smith .He probably thought he was getting revelation but so did David Koresh and Jim Jones ....
The church has done two major U turns already , Polygamy and Blacks and the Book Of Mormon will be next !
I wish reality was different but it isn't .If there was ever a church I could call home then Mormonism would have been the one , but not in its present state of denial and sheer arrogance . I couldn't introduce my family and friends to a gross injustice to Indians and Polynesians . Goodness, telling them they are the people of the Book Of Mormon when they simply are not .
When I was investigating the church , I was listening to Samuels podcasts and I have to be honest but he is right about the church .He sacrificed his life for the church like yourself and all good faithfull members and can you imagine the horror he felt when he came to find out he'd been deceived by the very church he loved and trusted to be honest and they weren't !
I'm still active in church as an investigator but its going to be impossible to join with a clear conscience ... I go because I have Mormon friends now , whether they were assigned to me or not I don't know ! lol I'm sure they are genuine and I love them .I can't bring up anything in church , its a nightmare .The bishopric know I know the real truth so now I have freedom without pressure to get baptised .
You can stay in denial , but the issues won't go away and church growth is slowing dramatically .The only converts I've seen are African ASYLUM SEEKERS and they are using the church for their own ends , and I don't blame them , they need help and I admire the church for not judging them and taking them on in good faith .
Future Church Prophets/Apsotles will come from Todays Generation who know about the problems and they'll change things . I know already what will change before it does so why should I insult my own intelligence and follow the prophet when he is light years behind the times .
WOW! What have I missed!?
MM
samuel,
love your blog, but you'd be a lot more effective if you could make the answers shorter. don't take that as a criticism, just a suggestion -- because i agree with you on everything!
Very interesting blog. I think the hardest thing for most people to fathom is the fact that, after all is said and done, every person is ultimately alone. I guess that's why religion is so successful. So many unscrupulous people have preyed on that fear for so long. Question: If your sole purpose in life is to help other people, spiritually, emotionally, physically, why would you live in luxury while others suffered and struggled?
From my point of view the evolutionism is a fraude a fake and the "principles" that the two atheist sustained is just the wish to do what you like without subordonation to a Greater Creator wich is God.I know many people who are atheist and let me tell to you they are not happy and they try to fullfill their lives with entertainment like money ,jules ,faim ,pornography,wearing fancy clothes and other way's to arrive to fullfilment to be happy body and mind but this is not possible and olso tried many religions like :budaism,hinduism.taoism,wicca,satanism ,philoshopy,darwinism,confucianism and other doctrines but their lives changed when they converted to christianity and become the true christian i speak about the true christian not the fake one so i wanna ask a question to all :Do u can see the love? the wind? or our thoughts? so i invite the atheist to explain that i asked scientificaly because they belive just theyve se right?
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