I have encouraged all Mormon Truth readers and listeners to send me anything that they have written, that they want published and finally, one of you has taken me up on this. Ray, who is a great regular reader and listener, has sent me these comments regarding "special witnesses" and I think it's an awesome post and very powerful and well deserving of being on my blog for all to read and ponder. I couldn't have expressed these views any better myself and I'm proud to post his words on my blog.
I hope that Ray will become a regular contributor as I know he has a lot to say and express, just like I do. I hope that this will inspire and encourage more of you to send me your thoughts and writings that you want published. We get between 5,000-10,000 hits a month on Mormon Truth, so you will get a good audience and be able to help many people and I will always give you full credit. Take care everyone and enjoy this great post and feel free to leave your comments, as Ray will be sure to respond to everyone and will look forward to what you have to say, as will I.
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"Special Witnesses"
I come from a family that is TBM as far as I can see. Both sides of the family. My father buys into the whole church thing and just loves a good FPR. (faith promoting rumor) Nothing like a good story to prove, once again, that the church is true. My aunt (my father's sister) is staying with him while serving a service mission somewhere on temple square. Not long ago, she came home with a great story about Henry B. Eyring.
Please keep in mind that I was not personally at this meeting so I do not know all that was said. This is a second hand story so take it as you will. She (my aunt) attended some type of meeting where Henry B. Eyring was the featured speaker. As he began to speak, he talked about the need for the members to practice being more Christ-like. A courteous driver is Christ-like. Then he adds this little comment: "This isn't what I was going to speak about but I feel impressed to say this. I don't know where this is coming from."
Is it just me or does that phrase just rub you the wrong way? Are Apostles required to take a humility class where they learn how to be humble and at the same time hint about how inspired they are? They are all very good at it.
"I don't know where this is coming from." What the hell? Of course, he is hinting that he is receiving revelation right there on the spot, in a humble way, of course. The next part of the story really gets me. He even had tears in his eyes! Wow! What an act! Are Apostles also required to take acting classes where they learn how to produce tears on demand? Of course, TBM father and aunt buy into the whole story with complete conviction that it's all 100% true. It never even occurs to them that the guy is putting on a great show.
I know this has been said before, but I need to say it again. What exactly are these guys a "special witness" of? If they are a witness, how come they are not allowed to tell it? Of course, they all hint that they have personally seen Jesus Christ, but they can't actually say it. So here, I see a problem. If Joseph Smith claimed to see God and did so very openly (that's what they teach although we ex-mo's know that he never did), why can't they do the same? Why is it too sacred for them to say it but not Joseph Smith? Isn't he (Joseph Smith) the ultimate example of truth and right? Why then, won't they follow his example?
Why do church leaders hate being asked if they have seen God? Before I left the church, I was afraid to ask this very important question. I remember hearing stories of people asking this question and the person who asked was publicly rebuked for having no faith. Sorry, but I don't remember specific examples. Apostles won't admit to having seen God, but they won't deny it either.
Is this because they haven't seen, but can't let the faithful members know this? Having such an open ended answer is very convenient. They are not actually lying about it since they have never actually claimed it! How convenient. And yet they ask (or rather demand) for complete obedience to them. Why should I follow a "special witness" who will neither admit nor deny this very fundamental question? "Have you seen God?" In essence, they basically answer by saying, "Duh! Isn't it obvious?"
Even President Hinckley, when asked by a reporter if he is really a prophet, gives the same open-ended answer (and I paraphrase): "That's what every one seems to think. Laugh." And when asked, "Does God talk to you?" he replies (and I paraphrase again): "Yes, I talk to Him by praying." Well sorry, buddy, but that doesn't answer the question. You were asked if he talks to you, not if you talk to him. They all dance around and avoid the question. Why? I'll speculate on that for a moment.
Perhaps they know they are deceiving the people but are justified (as I hinted before) by not actually claiming to it. If it is later proven that they don't see God, they can state that they never actually claimed it. If it is later proven that they do see God, they can state, "See? I told you I was a special witness!" Once again, a perfect example of why the open-ended answer is so convenient: it leaves them guiltless and right either way.
Perhaps, they really have seen God and have had great things revealed to them that man-kind is not ready to receive. In being fair in our criticism of the church, we have to accept this as a possibility, however unlikely it may be. After all, we expect the TBM's to accept the church not being true as a possibility. But my rebuttal to this possibility is, if man-kind is not ready to receive it, why doesn't God reveal it to future Apostles in the time when the world is ready? After all, aren't the revelations of God supposed to be for the benefit of man-kind? So, if it doesn't apply to man-kind, why bother to reveal it?
Joseph Smith taught that the gospel can never change. So does this discredit "revelations" that change doctrine? How can one special witness claim it can never change, and then another special witness can claim that it can? Is it apostasy or revelation? Are these two witnesses getting their inspiration from the same source? It depends, the way I see it. If it outright changes an established doctrine, then it is apostasy. If it adds to a doctrine and expounds further upon it, then I could accept it as a revelation. That is a very fair statement and I believe that even most TBM's would agree with it.
So what about Joseph Smith teaching in the Fifth Lecture on Faith that "the Father [is] a personage of spirit"? Is it a doctrinal change when that statement is removed from the D&C and is replaced with "God has a body of flesh and bones"? It certainly appears so to me. One of these "special witnesses" is wrong. One (and I'm not suggesting which because it could be either) has received a revelation that contradicts the other. If they both have their revelation from a true source, why do they contradict each other? Why did the doctrine change? This very question bothered Book of Mormon witness David Whitmer so much that he left the church because of it.
He later wrote:
"Is it possible that the minds of men can be so blinded as to believe that God would give these revelations...and then afterwards command them to change and add to them some words which change the meaning entirely? Is it possible that a man who pretends to any spirituality would believe that God would work in any such manner?" (An Address to All Believers in Christ, 1887)
Let the TBM answer this question: is this apostasy or continuing revelation? (They won't answer it though; they'll just dance around the question like their leaders do (because they know the answer and don't want to admit it)). In this case, it is obvious that the doctrine has changed, not been expounded upon. If it was expounded upon, the Lectures on Faith would have been left in the current version of the D&C. But they have been removed and the church conveniently never talks about it.
In fact they claim that the church has always taught that God has a body. This is obviously changing doctrine and is proof that the church itself is apostatizing. Since this is the case, the leaders can't possibly be inspired, at least not by God because apostasy is of the devil. Whew!
As a member of the church for many years myself, I never once, ever heard that the church's official doctrine, for 86 years (from 1835 to 1921), was that God is a spirit! The church claims that they do not hide anything, and that may be true (I say "may" but strongly disagree with it), but they certainly make no effort to inform the members of the things they don't want remembered.
The leaders know this is faith destroying and makes them look foolish, so they give their best effort to make sure no one knows about it. How? By dictating approved reading and studying materials. By warning members to avoid reading too deep into church history. By teaching that anti-Mormons are full of satan and can only lie to you. And lastly, by teaching that your "testimony" is more proof of the church than you will ever need.
I heard many times, "A witness of the Holy Ghost leaves a more lasting impression on the soul than an actual eye-witness". In other words, facts don't matter if they contradict the Holy Ghost. This looks to me like not only hiding the truth, but also brainwashing the members.
Okay, maybe I am starting to run in circles, but I will make my point, which I believe is very powerful. If it is necessary for church leaders to hide and suppress damaging information about the church, doesn't that tell you right there that they know it's not true? So why do they continue to promote it? Money and power. What else could it be? I mean, they elevate themselves to near God-hood, which is nearly unlimited power. All they have to do is speak and the world obeys without question. Money and power. The very thing which they condemn from the pulpit. Hypocrites! Damn good hypocrites!
We don't have a living prophet; we have a living God (fifteen of them; three in the First Presidency and 12 in the quorum of the twelve)! And they can't lead us astray because whatever they say is God's will (therefore, suggesting, again, that they are God). No wonder they worship Joseph Smith. He is the God of Mormonism. Brigham Young should have taught the Joseph Smith - God theory. Then there would be no need to hide it and denounce it!
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All I can say Ray, is AMEN brother!! You nailed it perfectly and I don't need to add anything to what you just thoughtfully, clearly and perfectly explained. I hope that some TBMS will respond to this, especially McKay, who left comments on the last blog entry. I don't know how anyone can argue with his logic, unless they slip into the infamous Cog Dis of Mormonism and cults.
Take care everyone and I sincerely apologize for my lack of posts and podcasts, as I've been very busy with the "summer family get togethers." I appreciate everyone's participation, patience and concern, but I'm fine and you'll be hearing plenty from me very soon. Thanks again Ray for your contributions and for this great post!!
Samuel the Utahnite
92 comments:
Ray, this was bloody fantastic!! You somehow in a few paragraphs said and answered some of my deep seeded questions since seminary! I feel like I've just been to therapy!!
Thanks so much!
Samuel. I really look forward to the "Fall Season" of your blog and Podcasts!
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
Hi sam (and everyone)
Since you addressed me directly I wanted to respond. Before I do I have a question. As I read through your blogs and peoples responses I only see those who agree with your stance against the church (I havent read them all). I am curious.. is this ment to be an open forum for a myriad of oppinions and perpectives including those who believe the in Gospell? Or is this ment to be a support site for those who have left and/or dont belive the church. I dont want to post if my comments are out of context with the purpous of your site.
McKay (my real name btw)
Hey Samuel,
Thanks for posting my article. I wan't expecting that and certainly hope it can help someone.
Lori, I guess it already has helped. What kind of questions were bothering you?
Hi McKay, my reply to you will be similar to Samuels. But first, I must say that if the Mormon apologists were more like you, then they might actually have an argument! Like you have said, our only difference is the conclusion. I fully respect everything you said (in the comment section of the last post).
You are surely welcome here. This is not a place of hate. It is a place of honesty. Sometimes a little too honest. Neither Samuel or I have a problem with someone who choses to remain LDS. I, personally, commend you for it. Being true to yourself is the most important. So comment away! Your comments are very sincere and, although they are the minority here, we "ex-mos" are not full of anger and hate like the church wants everyone to think. 99% of us still have family and friends in the church. So we don't hate Mormons, we love them.
I am open to email comments if anyone wants to make it private. Or feel free to comment here, either way. My email: polomolok@yahoo.com I will make my best attempt to reply to everyone. My spamguard is ON so if your email gets put into the spambox automatically, then I apologize now because I periodically empty it without even looking it over. This would be the only reason why I would not reply to anyone.
Hi Ray, one of my questions I had as a teen was "If Christ loved me unconditionally and died for me as a "gift", then why does the church have a million and one things I have to do to "earn" that sacrifice. I felt like they were talking out of both sides of their mouths. We are loved unconditionally, but...no we're not.
Also, I couldn't understand if Jesus walked among the poor, then why on earth would he feel comfortable living in these huge gaudy temples we build for him. The "poor" of the world would never feel comfortable there and now that I'm an adult and know what sort of money has to go into the upkeep of a place like that, why would anyone want that? That would be more like a stone around your neck than a glorious place to live.
Also, somewhere in 1Ne, it talks about something being "white as the driven snow" Before I knew anything about the fraud that the church is, the though came to me, "how would someone who supposedly lived in Jeruselem know anything about snow, let alone 'driven snow'? Well, he wouldn't, but someone living in New York certainly would.
Yep, that is about it for now. Thanks for asking!!
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
Oh, one more thing I just remembered.
If murder was so bad, against the commandments, against civil law, etc, etc etc, why then was it ok for the "Father" to murder his own son? Basically the "Father" mocked his own laws and consciously planned, thought out and systematically murdered his son, while his son assisted in his own suicide/murder, and somehow this is actually supposed to help me in some way?
The way I see it is if a fireperson comes into a burning building to save my life and dies in the process, he is a hero because he/she did something tangible for me, they have me my life which I can actually use to help others and continue on, however Christ's death means absolutely nothing to me as it doesn't benefit me whatsoever, also he gets to go be a god again, so where is the big sacrifice? A fireperson knows they will die and has to go through the intense emotional anxiety that goes with that, the unknown. They know nothing that is going to happen to them before they die. It really wouldn't be a sacrifice if you knew you were going to be a god and live in supposed mansions and have zillions of people worship you after you "sacrifice yourself". No, the whole Christ story is really, really shallow and hollow for this reader.
Thanks.
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
Damnit! I just spent an hour typing in a comment and then accidentally closed the window! Now I have to type it all again! That Mormon god must hate me. LOL
Lori, I have had similar thoughts to yours. Why would Jesus, the most humble man on earth, build magnificent temples, skyscrapers, malls, & hotels? The true church of God sure is a worldly church. Every time I drive by the COB (church office building) I can't help but think of the great and spacious building as described by Nephi. It's the tallest building in SLC and those inside are in the attitude of pointing and mocking. Ironic.
And the sacrifice of god's only son? I always wondered why it was so hard for god since Jesus would go right to him as soon as he died.
I've also thought it strange the church teaches that worldly possessions are not important (which I do agree with) but then teach that your final reward will be mansions and riches.
I know you said you were serious, Sam, but all I could do is laugh when I read your last post. Not only Mormonism, but also Christianity is a joke. It's the lazy mans way to heaven. Seriously, most Christians believe they have to do NOTHING to get to heaven. In fact, they believe that they are mocking god if they try to do anything to earn it! At least the Mormons believe in actually putting in some effort to earn the reward. If I was god, would I want to be surrounded by a bunch of lazy, do-nothing people who expected me to do all their work for them? Of course not!!! That is purely ridiculous.
Well, this post is a lot shorter than my other one. I just don't feel like re-typing everything. Kudas to Judas!
I found this web page which talks about Did_Jesus_Really_Live? It is kind of long, but I found it to be very interesting.
Sorry, McKay, I forgot to comment to you. Your entire post was beautiful and I found one phrase to be especially interesting. You said: "If all we do is present a story that is most believable to the weakest of the saints, do we not drive away the stronger?" Beautifully said.
If the church had just been honest with me, I might, just might have stayed. I am a person who is more than willing to serve. McKay, if you asked me to come help you paint your house, I would be there as quick as my car would bring me. Before my exodus, I was a ward clerk, which meant meetings before, during, and after church, and several times during the week. I gave a ton of service to the church. Fortunately, they gave it back to me. For a while we were on the church welfare program, which I am truly grateful for. We probably would have lost our home without them. The problem is that most people get onto the welfare system, and never get off! But my whole point is that I have/had a lot of talents to give to the church and they lost it because they weren't honest with me. If there is one thing I hate, it is being lied to.
I own a rental property and have had the privilege of dealing with the scummiest people on the planet! Those people will smile at your face while lying through their teeth. They will turn their home (my apartment) into a shithole. I should be used to it by now, but each time a POS moves out in the middle of the night, I am appalled at how filthy and trashy they are! They smoke in the house in spite of promises that they will smoke outside. They let their dogs do their business anywhere. They write on the walls with permanant markers, they cut up the carpet. Trash is everywhere except in the garbage can! Why am I sharing all this? Because they claim to be Christian! and yet they live in pure filth! They are liars and cheaters. They are dishonest and filthy. I will never comprehend why anyone would want to turn their place of residence into such a pig pen. I think it speaks volumes about their own self worth. Ah, the joys of being a landlord. They are not all like this, of course.
Good night, everyone. I think I'm going to take a trip over the weekend just to get away for a few days.
Dear Cernovog,
Even though I no longer believe in Christianity, I suppose there is a part of it that will always be fundamentally within me. Like I said, (or meant to say but it must have been in the post that I accidentally deleted) I don't know a whole lot about other religions and even Christian religions other than Mormonism. If I have misrepresented what they believe, I apologize. Please, keep in mind, though, that I was not specifically referring to Catholics. With most talks or debates I have ever had with a Christian of a different sect, I was given the impression that they do not believe in works at all. Your explanation was one of the best I have ever heard.
Just to make sure I understand you correctly, I will paraphrase what you said. Jesus' gift is free to everyone; all they have to do is accept it. In order to accept it, they must do good deeds and treat their fellowmen with kindness and charity. They are not earning heaven; they are accepting the gift. Those who think they have been saved but do not accept the gift, by being criminals, abusers, etc., aren't really saved because they really haven't accepted the gift.
If I have understood you correctly, and I hope I have, I now understand general Christianity better. I was always under the impression that they say their little prayer to Jesus and then sit back and enjoy the ride to heaven. That's why I referred to it as "lazy man". Thank you for clarifying.
As far as Christianity in any form, it is all still too bizare for me to continue believing it. If you've read any of the comments I have made recently, you should know my feelings on that; that it is a myth.
For some reason, man has this desire to create gods to worship. Man finds great pleasure in creating a god and then defying him. Life could be so much less painful if people could just realize that god is nature. You are nature. Therefore, you are god. If you have faith that something will happen, then it will because you made it happen with your mind.
No one has any control over me, except what I allow them to have. I have been trying to teach my son that when someone teases him, they do it because they get a rise out of his reaction. His reaction is giving permission to be teased again. If you stop reacting, the bully will stop teasing.
This is such a simple way of life and most people would be surprised at how well it works. I believe there is no such thing as sin, except perhaps one: Any act against another living creature. If I murder, the murder itself is not the sin. The sin is that I have taken away the life from a living creature. If I steal, the sin is not stealing itself but that I have wronged another living creature. If I lie, the sin is not the lie but that I have deceived another living creature. If I cheat on my wife, the sin is not adultry, but that I have betrayed her. In essence, the only sin that really exists is breaking the Golden Rule. If you have respect for all life, you are perfect. I'm not only talking about human life, but all life. An ant has every bit as much right to live as I do. If I stomp on the ant just because I can, I am a murderer.
I know my views are different, but they make so much sense to me. Actually, I believe they are similar to Buddahism, which I am going to learn more about very soon. Really, if I respect all life, am I not a Christlike person?
I don't expect anyone to agree with me, so you're right, we'll have to agree to disagree. But I appreciate the beautiful and non-condecening way in which you presented yourself.
I was searching around for some good info on the LDS church, and unhappily stumbled onto your ridiculous little website. I, myself, am struggling with my own Mormon beliefs, but I have never been so insulted than by the outrageous things you claim in your blog. How can someone waste his life devoting precious time to spreading this garbage? (And by garbage, I mean your twisted opinions, not the beliefs of this church - don't try to twist my words around, buddy). I am very offended by the things you say about the leaders of this church, and the way you mercilessly deface their pictures. I can't keep you from expressing your opinion, but I think you should know you're an asshole. Yes, that's not really up to the high Mormon standards, now, is it? But I can't understand how someone can be so hard-hearted and bitter towards something you once held dear. Shame on you for creating this trashy blog, and for spreading your disgusting and disturbing opinions and false "facts" to the public. Reading just a few passages from select posts of your's sickens me. I know you don't care about anything I've just said, but I feel someone needs to say it, probably not for the first time. That's fine if you don't agree with LDS beliefs, but how dare you devote your precious time trying to convince everyone that this church is evil and wrong? But this is coming from a 22-year-old girl, and you are much older and "wiser" than me, right? Oh, plus you're a male, so that means I'm oppressed and unhappy, right, because I'm a female LDS member? You put the "dick" in ridiculous. I feel sorry for you, and anyone else who stumbles onto this website.
Adrienne,
You mentioned that you are questioning your faith. Maybe, then, there is something here for you to benefit from. Sure, Samuel the Utahnite expresses himself stronger than most, but look at the message, not the messenger.
Of course, never hearing the problems with the church and then stumbling onto all of them all at once can be overwhelming, so your reaction is understandable. Back in my TBM days, I would have probably written something very similar myself. The fact is, the issues that Samuel addresses are not lies. If you care to do any open minded research, you will find that Samuel is right on the money.
Our friend McKay is TBM (in case you didn't notice) but we have a ton of mutual respect for each other. He was a little sarcastic in his post to you, but seriously, you could learn a ton from this guy.
I honestly don't expect you to ever come back here or even read this comment, but if you would like to come back and lose the personal attacks, you will find that we are a group of people who are very sincere. If you have problems with your faith, McKay can most likely help you through it. If you eventually leave the church, there are plenty of people here to support you through the very difficult process.
Please keep in mind that Samuel was not attacking you or the general members of the church. He is exposing the lies that come from the leadership, how they change doctrine and hide their history, all while pretending to be men of god and lining their pockets with your tithing dollars.
McKay and I have been very easy on you, but I can guarantee that Samuel isn't about to take any personal insults. So brace yourself and hang on coz you're about ready to be blasted into oblivian!
Sorry Sam... I was going to re-post that poem when I made a few edits, but you have taken the innitative.
It is totally a joke, but I thought you might like it! I did have time.. a slow day at work, and I needed something to lighten my mood. I was going to say it in reference to a missionary technique you might have used in your TBM days!
Just messin.
In regard to the whole... "ugly pinto" I am not refering to you personally. When I read that back it sounded bad. Sorry.
But I will say your animosity and bitterness do seem apparent, and they are not traits I would want in myself, and if adopting your position created such, I would tend to avoid it.
I also stated you are wrong on the issues. That is a mistatement as well. Again I am sorry. You are right on many issues, and I agree. But I think your conlusions... though justifiable, are wrong.
Sometimes I dont articulate myself as well as I would like.
Actually I am sorry even to Adrienne. I have cooled down a bit.
I just cant stand hypocrasy... I really really cant stand it. I guess I need to work on that and develop more patiece toward hypocritical behavior.
I do think that you have done more harm than good with your post. But I should not be so harsh on you for defending our faith. I just think there is a MUCH better way to do it.
I get very passionate at times, and mask my frustration in sarcasm. But I have no problem admitting when I am wrong.
McKay
Samuel, I have been reading some of these comments. The TBM's that come here to bear their testimony of the mormon cult are being sincere.
I know that you have dealt with many cult members for a long time. In fact you and I used to be cult members, so we know the type of venom they feel for people who have left--and want to expose the cult.
I read their words and think "yep, I have been there before". McKay and Adrienne, I know it seems like Samuel is a demon or as you say, Adrienne, an asshole.
I realize some of what Samuel says may seem extreme. When a person finally realizes that the church they believed in is not a church but a cult, there is a lot of anger.
Samuel is expressing his feelings about the LDS cult. He has every right to do that.
I hear you say it is important to you. Well, good. But to Samuel, me, Ray and others, we have BEEN where you are, defended it like you are doing, angry at non-believers like you are now, yep, we know how you are feeling.
Go ahead, get mad at Samuel, Call him whatever you want. Feel self-righteous. That is OK. But do this: Read YOUR OWN history. REALLY look at the history of YOUR own church. It you REALLY look at it, you will find the truth.
But I know you think I am a liar or a loser or whatever. I do not care what you think of me. I just hope that you will do yourself a favor and after you are done feeling pissed at Samuel, take time to THINK why so many people are leaving the Momon Church.
We are reading the real history, finding out that we have been fed a bunch of beautifully wrapped lies. If you want to tell Samuel, me, Ray whomever to go to hell, OK. That's fine. But one day, you too may begin to learn what we have learned. If that day ever comes for you, you will be shocked at the anger and frustration you will feel at finding out the REAL truth about Mormonism.
Best wishes to you whether you stay or leave the LDS faith.
Hey Samuel,
I just want to point out that Adrienne doesn't really seem to be TBM. She's on the fence, looking around. Her feet seemed to still be planted on the Mormon side, but she's taking a look at what the other side has to offer.
Sadly enough, your posts are so angry and bitter they seem to be turning her off.
Plus there's the culture shock of being immersed in a society where Gordon Hinckley is revered as the mouthpiece of God to coming over to your point of view where he is mocked and villified.
I hope she finds the answers she is looking for.
Adrienne, if you're still reading this, I suggest you check out the Catholic Mormon Podcast http://www.catholicmormon.com
It offers alternative information about Mormonism, info about Catholicism and it's not nasty or mean-spirited.
I don't know if it's your cup of tea or not, Samuel. I hope you don't mind me plugging them on your blog.
Hey, one more thing, speaking of "it's not nasty or mean-spirited."
Yeah, Cernovogy, what would you consider the Mormons teachings to be on "better off dead than immoral", "blood atonement", "no interracial marriages", "excommunication for homosexuals that act on their urges", "sexual sin or masturbation as next to murder", "all other Churches are abominations with corrupt preachers", "paying tithing instead of feeding your family", "families can't be together for marriages, if they aren't all active temple goers", "promised and guaranteed separation for every Mormon that isn't a TBM upon death", "funerals are not for those that have died, rather to convert people", "we don't care if more missionaries die or get sick", etc, etc, etc!!
Need I go on?!! Good hell, if this isn't mean spirited or nasty, then what the hell is? What, you expect me to respond like we are playing tiddlywinks here? Get a clue Cernovog and realize that offensive and awful teachings like I just listed, deserve ONLY a strong response. To think that they don't, tells me that you are off in la la land....please come back to reality!! Do you not understand or comprehend that these teachings and the overall control and expectancy of perfection, in Mormonism, has destroyed families and lives and caused many deaths.
Mormonism is a cult and many tragedies have come from this cult, which is led by horrific cult leaders, like Gordon B. Hinckley. This is the truth and if you can't deal with it, then look elsewhere, because these are the things that I'll be discussing here with great passion. I will not apologize to anyone for dealing with very offensive teachings, that destroy lives, in a very strong way. For those that prefer the kid gloves treatment, I highly recommend the FAIR board for you.
Samuel
I forgot... I wanted to respond to "Cernovog".
first. Cog dis means - Cognitive dissonance - defined as; the perception of incompatibility between two cognitions, which can be defined as any element of knowledge, including attitude, emotion, belief, or behavior (in lay men's terms, the uncomfortable tension that comes from holding two conflicting thoughts at the same time).
Second. Death bed repentance. I do not claim to know how exactly God will judge. But common sense and rational tells me that death bed repentance is.... um. hmmmmmm..... Highly unlikely. I think it might help, but ultimately ones charicter would have to change. That change does not come ultimately from sincerely being sorry. Feeling really sorry does not just mean feeling bad. It means feeling bad enough to change your behavior and do whatever possible to make the situation right. How do you do that when you are dead? What if you have left behind a legacy of murder,tyranny, opression, abuse, torture, rape, and the likes. Even after this the person dies this legacy of corruption will continue to corrupt further generations and destroy more lives.
I could care less if I spent my entire life working for salvation and another gets it in 10 mins. I am only worried about my personal character, not how much harder it was for me than another. But I would say personal charicter is built througout a life, not in a deathbead.
Whatever the case, even if it were possible, I think teaching it is wrong. It clearly gives people an excuse. IM SORRY JESUS. I mean really sorry. I confess you are the Christ, now give me my key to heaven. Im sorry, it just doesnt ring true. The parable seems to be taken out of context and the principal of the story is insulting to even the most compassionate form of intellect.
However i will say there is a differense between ignorant, reactive sin and cognitive, proactive sin. One is the result of uncontrollable circumstanse, the other the result of personal will and agency.
Peace-
M-
sorry to keep posting. But again to "Cernovog"
You seem like a great person. Dont take my comments wrong. I am just debating a philosophy, not mocking you. I enjoy all your comments and your perspectives. This issue of deathbed repentance has always been an issue with me. I would never deny anyone the opportunity to make things right. But like I said... deathbed? It just doesnt ring true. I could apply the parable of the ten virgins and the oil for their lamps. the just of it is, the oil stands for works and preperatioin. Those who dont have it at the coming of the Bridegroom are shut out. They put things off too long.
If I were to put the parable you used in perspective I would say. If.... lets say, Sam has been a believing christian his entire life, doing good works and living honestly. Then someone else, when they are 60 years old or whatever, has a conversion experiencse and becomes a christian. They may have done many things in their life ignorantly.. or through poor example, and then when presented with the appropriate circumstances, become converted and change their ways out of free will and a desire to make things right. Not fear of death and God compelling them to be sorry. They are as entitled to the same blessings as Sam is so long as they continue in their good works. And if Sam has a problem with that... that is his problem, not the others.
Just my perspective anyway. Ill shut up now.
Mckay
You're absolutely right McKay. You understand the concepts just fine.
The problems you have with a deathbed confession are perfectly valid.
Certainly you are right, it is not proper or feasible or justifiable to think a deathbed confession is something someone can plan on. A last-second, half-hearted "time to accept Jesus" plea certainly won't cut it.
I believe it is possible to be saved by a deathbed confession, that God's mercy is infinite, but to say that true repentence happens often would be inaccurate. Who knows how often this actually happens? Once in a million? Less often than that?
The parable of the ten virgins fits in this discussion perfectly and, in fact, I was thinking about it as I wrote my response. You are again, absolutely correct. The parable of the ten virgins clearly illustrates that only a fool would plan on using a last second confession to save his soul and chances are it won't work.
As you said, God is our judge and he truly knows what is in our hearts.
So, Samuel, it seems that the problems you have aren't really problems at all. Just a misunderstanding. Maybe I just have a different concept of God's mercy and generosity. That's all and I think it's a minor point.
Just to clear something up, McKay, I don't know that we really teach people to use a deathbed confession as a philosophy for living their lives. Certainly that would be wrong in many ways. Not only would it make life miserable for everyone, but it would involve someone risking their soul over a dubious gamble.
If this is what someone gets out of this idea, then they are sorely misguided.
In the end, I believe a deathbed confession is possible, but even I would say it requires true repentence. How often does that happen? Especially with horrible crimes or lifelong sins? Not often, maybe even not ever. There's no way for anyone to know.
Possible but not likely.
I think it's a minor point of contention between us, and I'm cool with that.
I can easily see both point of view and they both make valid arguments. I am relieved to hear Cernovog say that the idea of a deathbed confession is not emphasized, as one should devote their life to god the moment they are converted. This is how the parable of the servants can be applied; one servent being hired in the morning, one in the afternoon and one in the evening. And they all receive equal pay. I think we can all agree that this parable shows that it doesn't matter when you give you life to god, as long as it is genuinely given.
The parable of the virgins teaches that those who put off this conversion are most likely going to lose the chance altogether. So this is why I understand and even agree with both arguments. A true death bed confession, while rare, is like the servant hired in the evening. The problem, as McKay stated, is that once a person is dead or dying, there isn't much time for them to make ammends and correct the wrongs in their life.
This is why I am glad I am not the judge. Only god knows the intentions in each heart and he will decide which confession, deathbed or not, is sincere, as I am sure that there are many who say the little prayer or whatever and then never give it another thought. This, in my opinion, is not a true conversion at all!
I no longer believe in a Christian god, but I definitely believe in the existance of a higher power and the ability to call upon that power.
I am currently listening to Wayne Dyer, a spiritual teacher. He talks about god being the source. It doesn't matter what you call it, God, Allah, Ra, Great Spirit, etc., but it has great power if you can learn to connect to it. His approach is definitely god centered, but not to any specific religion. His books and CD's should be available in most public libraries if anyone want's to check them out. So far, I have really enjoyed what I've heard from him.
I still have much to learn and a lot of personal progression to make. I don't think god even cares what name you call him or what church you worship him in. I think god cares about all living things and we are judged based upon how we treat them. Remember what you have done to the least, you have done to god. Therefore my personal belief is respect for all livings things. I don't think the "least" is necessarially referring to a poor or humble person, but perhaps to an insect or a bird. "Least" to "greatest" includes everything from plants to bugs to people and everything in between.
I strive to live by the Golden Rule. And if you really think about it, if one wisely follows this rule, does he need any other guidance? There is no other rule or commandment that can not be somehow linked back to this one. After all, when Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment is, he replied, Love God and love your neighbor. Golden Rule = Love Your Neighbor.
I think the diamond platnium rule, that superseeds the "golden rule" should be...
Love yourself first above anything else even if you can't love your neighbor because if you don't, you'll never be able to love anything and all you'll do is control your neighbor.
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
When I read the comments of people on this site, it becomes so clear to me that many are seeking truth and integrety of purpouse as much or more than any TBM. You are all confirming what I stated I believed earlier. You are good, honest, people who seek understanding, truth and sincerity in beliefs.
I was thinking a good example of death bed repentance is the thief who was killed next to Christ at His crucifixion. Christs comments suggested a paradise awated the theif when he died. Could be any better example of sincere deathbed repentance than this?
So what was Christ trying to tell us here? Could he not look at the theif and be able to tell that though a thief, maybe the man was compelled to steal to provide for basic needs for self or family. Maybe the political system through corruption created unnessary poverty and suffering that denied these people of the most basic needs, making theivery the only means by which one could sustain the life of himself or his family. Then that same system that causes the behavior, punishes the same with death. Or maybe the man was abused, beaten, or had horrible examples that created deep problems within his charicter. And maybe at the very hour he was to die, he could see with compassion the injustice that was taking place at Christs crusafixion and felt remorse beyond measure for his own sins. Maybe that man was more filled with compassion at the death of Christ than anyone else at the sceen. Maybe Christ in looking at this mans heart could tell what kind of man he would be had the circumstances been better, and at the very hour he was suffering for everyones sins, looked with love and mercy on the thief and said. I know you, I love you, and tonight when we die, you will be with me and I will teach you the principals of heaven and eternity giving the "thief" a chance to accept it and live it.
Just a thought.
Hi Mckay,
I respect your thoughts and feelings about Christianity, and I know you are on your own journey through your life etc, but I want to say that I find Christianity as repulsive as Mormonism. I find it infantilizing (is that even a word!!:-) my head, degrades me as a woman, condemns me for existing, insists that I accept a man who may or may not have lived 2000 years ago as not just a deluded, self-indulgent, man, but a god nonetheless, and then demonizes me and threatens me if I don't do things his way!! He then further requires me to be as co-dependent with him as he is with his father, be willing to sever all my family ties if one of us decides not to follow an invisible superstition and after all that wants my total submission. Then at last after his murder/suicide, he wants me praise him for leaving this Earth at supposedly 33 years old when there are people who are much older than that who have sufferred horribly. Why would I do this? I didn't ask anyone to save me. I don't need to be saved and I refuse to put my soul through the torture of judging myself every step I make in my life and worrying about being judged again after I die!! Judging is the first step to hatred.
So there you have it. Christianity to me is a parasite that seeks to destroy the "self" in all of us and make us totally dependent once again on a religion that wants to suck us dry of our money, our minds and our very lives.
No thanks, I'll go it alone, I'm much happier that way.
I'm good enough.
Thanks,
Lori
www.myspace.com/steppinupmusic
Hi, someone asked me privately what I do believe in. After I typed out the email, I decided it was worth posting here.
I do want to say that I don't want to debate my feelings. I already did that for years and have now come to the point through life experience that this is now how I feel after all the evidence has been weighed. No one needs to feel sorry for me. That is still an "I am right and you are wrong and I have the truth and you don't" sort of mentality. Be grateful I'm still alive, that I found my way out that I'm finally my own person and I've cut the bonds that held me.
My beliefs-
I'm not religious at all. I even find the term "Atheist" not to my liking because it denotes that I don't believe in "god", therefore it still ties into religion. I believe all religion is harmful because it forces us to disconnect from ourselves. I believe we are all connected to a something wonderful within us and it is only when we follow our hearts an dlive our lives being true to our inner self that we are happy and things become clear. I think the only person we need to worry about pleasing is ourselves. I dislike religion because it all says at it's base that we are worthless and "need" some sort of god to make us "ok". I totally disagree. I think that thinking cripples us. I believe in taking in the sunshine, working hard, eating well, watching sports and good movies, empowering the world, and being the strongest me I can be. When I do that, everyone around me is at peace and not worrying that I'm going to judge them. I let everyone else have their lives and I have mine. I just refuse to buy the dogma that I'm worthless and in need of a savior. I'm past that point in my life, and I'm certainly past the point of paying a religion 10% of my income just to be told I'm worthless, but if I keep paying them, Christ will forgive me for being worthless. To me it's all a sham to make money.
I've come a long way and these beliefs have been hard earned and now I'm loving being in my own skin. I love my humanity and I love my ability to finally live and let live. I will whole heartedly reject any organization that attempts to take that away from me.
Thanks!! Have a good day!
Lori
www.myspace.com/steppinupmusic
Oh, one other thing...I want to say that I realize that something, or someone, or a whole group of someone's, or even us created this planet and the trillions of others around it, but I don't know what that/they are. And it is quite refreshing to NOT know the answers. I don't have to admit to something that I know nothing about such as god living on Kolob, men walking on the sun and the moon etc. I simply do not know the answers, however as I learn about the Earth and myself, I think we are all pretty fantastic. That is the difference.
I want to spend my time focusing on the wonder that is within us and our planet rather than give an ounce of time berating myself because "my natural man is an enemy to god".
By the way, for those that don't know, I had a huge NDE a few years ago and that is how all my beliefs changed. Well, that is how they started to change, since I've been back and seen the difference, I changed the rest. I definately believe the only one who judges us, is...US.
Have as splendid day!!!!!
Lori
www.myspace.com/steppinupmusic
Lori,
I love your comments as always and it was good to see you commenting again, as we hadn't heard from you for a little while. I rarely ever disagree with what you are saying and I believe that we pretty much have the same perspectives on Mormonism, God, Jesus, this earth, us, etc.
I just wanted to thank you again for your participation and that I love your comments and way of expressing yourself. Please stay around and keep sharing your thoughts with us, as I love your perspectives, as I'm sure many others do. I'm glad that "Mormon Truth", is a place where you feel you can come and express your true feelings about Mormonism along with your experiences.
Best wishes,
Samuel
I wanted to put a little dislaimer in what I just said. Obviously not all of NZ is like what I mentioned. Obviously there are some fantastic people here. As a tourist I was treated like gold. My experience is coming from having lived and worked here for 4 1/2 years in the think of things and have seen a bit more of the dynamics. My experience isn't everyone's obviously, but from where I've walked and am walking currently, there are some real serious social issues. I saw the same thing on my mission in Scotland. When you can literally go down and give the govt your power bill and ask them to pay it nd they do, and then you ask them to pay your rent...and they do, and then you ask them to pay your food bill...and they do, that totally destroys your sense of responsibility and over time, can become corrosive to your soul. It is this issue that I'm talking about, not all New Zealanders.
I just wanted to clarify that.
Thanks,
Lori
www.myspace.com/steppinupmusic
Thanks again Sam for your awesome comments. The last one should be on the Blog as its own seperate post! As I said, I personally believe you to be following the true conviction of your heart. You are facing the severe judgement by those you know and love simply for standing up for the wrongs you have seen. Your heart is good, and I believe your motives are noble and right. I sincerely thank you for the compasion you have shown for those who have suffered so greatly at the hand of the unrightcoues treatment of the church or its members. I thank you for not judging with such cruelty and self rightouesness those within the church who have struggled with heartaches, abuse, and sin. I sincerely believe with every ounce of conviction in my heart, that you have more reason to stand before God with some degree of integrety than MANY MANY members within our own faith.
I, for one would say, post away, speak out as loud as you can and continue to give voice to your concience. Continue to follow with intergrety the convictions of your own heart, as doing anything less can create the self loathing, insecurity, cog dis, and ultimately result in the tortured concience that has caused those dear friends you have mentioned to take their own lives. God has givin you your mind, your logic, your ability to understand right and wrong, your freedom, and your agency. Supression of anyone of those qualities denies the divine nature and rights inherent to us all. If the church suffers as a result of your voice, then they suffer as a result of their own behaviors and policies, and the suffering it has caused. And if the members are not strong enough to hear it and continue in their faith, then they have never really come to know the Gospel they claim to believe.
I look forward to sharing our perspectives and stories. I look forward to getting to know you better and understanding further about your life and experiences. I also look forward to sharing my own. Weather or not you agree with my insights and oppinions, at the very least they will be unique and somthing to give thought to.
Here are a few areas I would gladly discuss just to name a few.
Mountain meadows massacre.
Polygamy.
Blacks and racism in church history.
Tithing and the finacial management within the church.
Temples, covenants, symbolism and their ties to masonry.
The abusive and flawed policies toward gay men.
The heavy emphasis placed upon Joseph Smith within the church.
The watering down of church history.
The true healing and recovery from abuse and sin.
The book "Miracle of Forgiveness".
Sex as "The sin next to murder" and why it is defined as such.
How the church is governed.
The role of the Prophet and apostles and the nature of their testimonies.
The inability of the church to admit flawed proceedures and mistakes.
These seem to be the "Biggies" but I am open to any subject.
Take Care,
McKay
Dear McKay,
Those are excellent topics. To clear up my thinking, are you going to be debating "for" these events from a TBM view, or are you wanting just to know the truth behind these events?
Thanks,
Lori
www.myspace.com/steppinupmusic
Sex as "The sin next to murder" and why it is defined as such.
This one just seems so bizarre to me.
How can a church that condones polygamy, whose founder had 49 wives and claimed god promised he could have 10 virgins, who asked church members for their daughters, how can they have such Victorian attitudes toward sex???
Isn't this just a huge, huge contradiction?
I'm still learning about the LDS church, especially its early history, but I can't seem to study church history without coming across some reference to Joseph Smith's sexual appetites.
I'd like to know more about this aspect of Mormonism.
Lori,
In response to your comment about loving yourself before you can love others...
Jesus' full reply to the question of the greatest commandment was "Love God and love your neighbor." Notice how god is first. As we have discussed in our email exchanges, god is within each of us. In fact, I am the god of myself because only I can take true control of me. Therefore, I agree with you perfectly that it is absolutely necessary to learn how to love yourself first.
Cernovog,
If you go visit www.thechurchisnottrue.com, you can listen to a podcast by Mike and Hyrum. There is a two part show where they talk with Bob McCue all about sex and power and politics. It is titled, "Was Smith Trustworthy?" McCue has some very interesting insights into early Mormon sexuality which you have expressed an interest in learning more about. I was completely spellbound when I heard it. In fact, I need to listen to it again.
McKay,
You forgot one of the most important topics (in my opinion anyway) and that is the problems with the Book of Abraham. This was the issue for me that ultimately caused my Mormon world to shatter.
Sam,
I told my wife that she needed to read your last post, and she actually did! At first when I told her it was all about how Mormonism ruins lives, she kind of sneered, (Mormonism can't possibly ruin lives!!!) but I told her it was very true and very worth reading. I think she understood it because she made a comment about how "God's one and only true state" should have the lowest depression and suicide rates, rather than the highest! Truly, if Mormonism makes people so happy why is this the case? It reminds me of that song with the lyrics, "If it makes you happy, then why are you so sad?"
Hi again,
Lori, I am only seeking truth and the sharing of perspectives. Keep in mind this is not a one way conversation. I want to listen as well, and I will let everyone freely draw their own conclusionis and hold to their own beliefs without judgement or ridicule.
Ray,.... the Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, Archaeoligy, whatever...I will discuss them all, though my studies and insights are more detailed in some areas than others.
Cernovog.. In dicussing sex as the sin next to murder. I will not discredit the basic human desires for sex, affection, and physical attraction as evil. Nor will I justify making anyone to feel guilty or wrong for having our God given passions and desires. Heck! I love sex just like any other guy... So you dont have to worry about me coming off as "holier than though". Such is not in my demeaner.
If anyone wants to put a face to the name you can visit www.hawkesfamilytimes.blogspot.com. This is a site my bro and I have been messing with. The top 8 posts are mine. I am building my own site but it still wont be up for a couple months.
TC
McKay
Hi McKay,
I just saw your site, your fishing trip looked fun. Sorry about your leg, that looks painful.
You are truly a very rare (at least for me) Mormon. I've never met a fellow like you so willing to talk without the arrogance. This is going to take some getting used to. I need to let the sheilds down a bit.
Thanks!
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
Hi Ray, the problem I have with your statement is the "Thou Shalt" in front of that "commandment" and every other one. "Thou Shalt" is a command, a command that has consequences if not adhered to. No one can force someone to love someone no more than they can force you to do your home teaching and visiting teaching. You can't force love, not to a friend and certainly not to an invisable god and not to yourself. It takes time and work on both ends for that. And heck, loving yourself sometimes takes years. It's all about time and care and when you are ready, not when you are commanded to.
Thanks!
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
Beautiful song McKay,
I was going to tell you, I was adopted at birth and my mother was around 17 or 18, was reunited with her about 8 years or so ago, it did not go well at all, however it was shocking to see the biological resemblence in all of us. Freaky, yet sad. It's taken me some time to seperate the "self" from looking in the mirror and seeing a huge resemblence to my bio dad who didn't even know I exsisted. I think it was from all of this that the whole "happy family" stuff the church teaches was nonsense. I started from very unhappy circumstances and I know that practicing old folk lore such as prayer and rituals to change events or the future such as temple attendance, priesthood ordinances etc changes absolutely nothing.
I'm reading a totally facinating book on the origons of Mormonism by Dr Quinn called "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View". Holy Cow that book has opened my eyes to the practice of folk lore magic, occult practices of the early church and early America. Just the act of prayer is attributed to folk lore magic. I never ever knew that, I only knew it never worked, but I never knew where it came from. I am feeling more educated reading about the realities of Mormonism that I EVER did in all my years as a church member hearing regurgitated lessons over and over and over.
I'm glad your relationship with your first child is going so well. That has got to feel fantastic.
Samuel, I'm still digesting your last post. Losing so many friends to low self esteem because of the church is absolutely horrible beyond words. Thank you for sharing. Amazing what we all have been through.
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
Interesting list of names that you have been called, Samuel. Maybe you should put them on your blog so the whole world can see how most Mormons defend their faith!
And Wow! Now Eric J. Hoffman is the expert on who is living in sin and who is saved! Now that is arrogance. And what is this about being a witness? Did he actually see Jesus? If not, then he is as big a liar as the big Mormon 15 who also claim to be witnesses (funny this should come up as it is the topic of the blog we are currently commenting in).
This is yet another reason why I can no longer believe in Christianity; it is full, in fact overflowing, of hypocrites.
While they are all so busy arguing over who is right, they forget that Jesus just wants men to show an increase of love. Since Eric is so good at quoting scriptures and is so familiar with the Bible, its funny how he so clearly missed the passage that says, "Judge not, lest ye be judged."
I just went over to lds.org to look up a scripture and something occured to me. At the very top of the home page is an idol! Exodus 20:4 says "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" It doesn't say "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, unless it looks like me." Jesus is supposedly in heaven and this verse specifically forbids a graven image of "any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above..." Now that's interesting, huh?
I know very little about Buddhism. I do know that it is not a religion but a way to know the self and reach enlightenment. Cernovog, you mentioned that you have been to Buddhist temples. How do you find them? I wonder if there's any in SLC. Do you know of any easy reading books? Thanks
I should clarify. When I say "not a religion" I mean not a religion of being saved or damned. Buddah was a great teacher but, unlike Jesus, he never claimed he was a saviour or god, at least not that I am aware of.
You know, when I read all your comments I just shake my head in disbelief. I dont blame anyone here for not believing in ANY religion and I am sorry. It seems trivial and useless to debate the issues as I cannot take on and defend every Member or Christian when I see such ludicrous behavior. Honestly I dont know how these people come to be who they are, when every teaching I have come to know condems their own behavior.
Again I am sorry. Just know, that I try to live my faith with integrety, and if the person I am today is in any way commendable, I owe it in large part to my faith, my testimony, and my own study and pondering of the scriptures.
Best of luck to you all. And just know any one of you would be welcome in my home so long as you respect my beliefs as I do yours.
McKay
Hey guys, just a quick update...after months of saying, defending and re-stating that all Mormons, that believe in Joseph Smith's teachings, "would lose their souls forever and have no heaven", he now says that that statement "is not Biblical" and that it will actually be much worse than that and that "he doesn't want to sound like a JW." Hmmm...maybe TheoJoe had a little sit down with him...ya think?
Eric Hoffman now says:
Posted: Sep 06, 2006 18:23
Just to let everyone know....It was not Biblical for to say that Mormons believing Joe Smiths lies is enough to cost you your soul forever.....
It's much worse. There is judgment and torture in hell to your soul for all eternity. Nashing of Teeth and eternal burning.
Just thought I would clear that up.....I dont want to sound like a Jehovah's Witness. They believe in the idea of losing souls.
Wow, thanks Eric, once again, digging your hole a little deeper each time you open your mouth. I'm just a little baffled that this so called, self-proclaimed "witness of Jesus Christ", didn't know until September 6th, that his teaching of "losing souls forever", was a JW teaching and not a Calvary Chapel/Evangelical teaching? I wonder what else he says isn't actually Biblical? I guess he's a false preacher, isn't he? How could he make such a mistake?
Also, now he claims the very teaching that he defended and was adamant and downright arrogant about, gave examples to prove it was true, etc, wasn't even Biblical to begin with and was false. Is this someone that any Christian or Mormon would want to be learning from? He doesn't even know what he's talking about when it comes to Christianity, let alone Mormonism.
The bad news is, his beliefs are now much worse than just an easy "losing of one's soul." As he states, "It's much worse. There is judgment and torture in hell to your soul for all eternity. Nashing of Teeth and eternal burning."
It's good to see him stepping it up a few notches and not giving the Mormon people that he loves so much, with such a big heart, the easy way out. Now these people that he loves and wants to help so much, can look forward to their soul being tortured in hell for all Eternity, while they gnash their teeth eternally....fun, fun...get out the popcorn..can't wait!! I'm sure that they'll come running now to join his cult!! Nothing like threats to convince and coerce people to join your cult, right?
The part that should be the most fun though, is the eternal burning....sweet...hook me up bro!! Will we be able to make smores down there....I sure hope that Satan will provide us with the marshmallows, chocolate and graham crackers....what a hoot eh?!! Boy, that Satan character is one tricky fellow, isn't he? I just hope that he has a sweet tooth...LOL!!
Imagine, all this eternal suffering, burning and gnashing of teeth, just because good, honest people believe in Joseph Smith. Now, extend this version of hell, that he believes in to be literal, for everyone that doesn't believe as he does. I believe that there are something like 200,000 Calvary Chapel Network members.....or maybe a few more, maybe a few less.....so imagine...everyone in the world will rot in hell, except for these very few lucky souls...Wow...joy to the world everyone!!
Don't tell me that they don't believe that they have the "only true church." Wouldn't it defeat their purpose to say otherwise...Just ask Chucky, their founder...I wonder what he'd say?!!
I just wanted to share Eric's latest message of love, peace and understanding for the Mormon people, that he has such a huge heart for and as a follow up to what was said yesterday. Thanks Eric for clearing all that up, and for finally admitting your false teachings....I'm sure that TBM Mormons will be greatly relieved at your message of love, tolerance and acceptance.
Thanks everyone,
Samuel
Wow, things got charged up, didn't they? Samuel, I want you to know I know EXACTLY how you feel in being called those names have having death threats against you. I've been there, and of course it has changed me completely. I no longer have this innocent feeling of "I'm a really nice person and no one would want to harm me". I know darn good and well that there are those that would indeed like to hurt me, and that makes me very grounded and very aware as I would imagine it does you too.
McKay, please don't leave. You are a breath of fresh air, but I respect your decision to do what you have to do.
I've come to the point that I'm not going to change for anyone any more. I've decided that I'm done living with that pain and I'm willing to live the rest of my life following my heart and ambition regardless of the losses I might instill in my personal life. I've discovered if people can't support me in me being honest with myself, then they really wouldn't be happy in my life anyway. I've also decided that if living my truth causes my death someday, then so be it. I'd rather live the rest of my life with mental peace and die quicker, than live my life a total lie, live with depression, have my body fall apart and live to be 100. No, I'll live happy now and take what comes.
Peace to you all!!!!!!
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
McKay,
I echo what Sam and Lori said. It is a pleasure having you here with us. If you feel you must leave, then best wishes to you. Yes, our views are certainly not consistant with the majority, and as you stated yourself, "When I read the comments of people on this site, it becomes so clear to me that many are seeking truth and integrety of purpouse..." I respect you very much for that statement because it is so true. Contrary to popular belief, people don't usually leave the church because of a sin. It is because our whole identity was shattered. And now we are here trying to pick up the pieces and reconstruct them into some type of a belief system. If you must go, please go as a friend and I think I speak for everyone when I say that I have upmost respect for you and your beliefs. I would never, ever try to force you to quit believing. Thank you for returning that respect to us and for seeing us as real people, with real feelings. If the Mormon faith produces people like you, then it can't possibly be all bad.
McKay, oh how rare you are. You are pearl indeed.
When I read your last sentence a thought struck me, it seems that for you your faith in Christ for the reason of loving humanity seems to be much stronger than your belief that Joseph Smith used occult rituals in his daily life to coherse people into believing him and paying him his salary.
Actually, I would very much be interested in knowing what it is about the LDS faith that gives you this desire to love Christ? Honestly and truely and fairly I would. Many of us have studied church history extensively and I would honestly love to understand where you are gaining your love of humanity from the LDS faith.
For me, when I found out that JS lied about the first vison, the BY ordered the death of one man as an example over the MMM, about the B of A being abolutely discredited as an abosolute load of rubbish with not one shred of proof that JS could actually translate anything whatsoever (actually I doubt he ever thought anyone would ever be able to prove him wrong back in the 1800's so he thought he got away with it), the way the "self" is destroyed in the church to forcibly promote absolute dependence on the church thereby filling their never ending coffers, the way women are treated as nothing but brood mares, the fact that no one knows exactly "when, where or how" the supposed "holy melchezidek priesthood was restored", but people sure tend to use it with such dominion and hate over people that it destroys lives, the fact that people act like narrcissists because they follow blindly anything that comes out of the "authorities" mouths without question, the DNA evidence, the Spaulding-View of the Hebrews-Ridgon connection with the Book of Mormon, the personal characters of all the early saints....I could go on and on and on of the lies, the falsehoods and the dangerous behavior of these people, but none so bad as this...the separation inflicted on its members. What I mean by that is this......
Say you were born into a specific ward and you lived there for several years and made close friends, and then one day someone reads over the pulpit, "the boundaries are changing", that means that some of your closest friends will no longer be worshipping with you. You and your friend have absolutely no voice in this decision and you are told you have to go to your own ward...separation.
You go to school and seminary and get told you are not to hang out with anyone that isn't Mormon and not to develop any romantic interests with anyone that isn't Mormon...separation.
Then, your dad gets called to be a bishop or stk president, or your mom gets called to RS president (all for free, no wages btw), and you don't see them for HOURS during the week...separation.
Then, your son or daughter goes on a mission. You don't get to call, talk to or correspond with your child except through a weekly letter, and maybe one call a YEAR and sometimes not even that...separation.
Then, you child gets married, but no family, sibling, friend who isn't a fully paid up tithing member can go. There is no young sister loving looking up to her beautiful older sister wanting to emulate her example because...she doesn't get to even go, despite the family forking over thousands of dollars for a wedding dress that will be covered with ugly white and green robes...separation.
Finally, you die and your family gets told that if they don't live up to the Mormon god's rules and pay, pray and obey that they won't be with you when they die...the final...seperation.
The church preys on the the most fundemental need we have, to be loved, accepted, to belong to a community. They try to destroy every ounce of safety, comfort and love we have and threaten us if we don't tow the line. Incidentally, they have absolutely no control of what happens to us after we die and I've always found it humorous that they use that last resort to control people.
Thanks for sticking around!
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
Ray
You posted while I was writing my response so I just wanted to respond to you as well. I read your posts and see you are very level headed. I appreciate your comments. Not only do I see you as "real people with real feelings", but as some of the most honest and sincere seekers of truth. And I know many people dont leave because of "sin". This is a stereotype from people who like to use cliché quotes that are out of context rather than think for themselves and evaluate the person based upon thier true intentions.
What I see many times are the MOST sincere and honest people in our faith that leave because they sense the lack of integrety in the ones who stay in for less noble reasons, see wrong behavior, and cant get answers to their questions. And when you ask questions, its like you are an unbeliever... That is part of the social culture of the church, and is by no means justified in doctrine. Sometimes its hard to seperate the two. If people like you stayed in the church, the social structure would change for the better im sure!
So I personally think that the people who leave the church, .. that if they truly believed and were converted would be the MOST valiant defenders and live the faith with the greatest integrety and sincerity. I see it as a tragic loss that people like you have left, and the church is left to be represented by... well, ummmm.... hmmmmmm... those who may not reflect the faith properly... hows that?
Lori,
Wooooooooooooooo.... hold on there.... slow down! This is why I dont even know where to start, this is too much too soon. Questions like these can take a long time to sort out... But I have a few comments and questions if you dont mind.
123,
Are you new here? I enjoy your comments and your unbiased approach to debate. Any background so we can see where you are coming from?
McKay
McKay,
The only thing you have said that I disagree with is that you don't have any more insights for us (If I understood correctly). Each time you make a comment it is inspiring. The last one about the phychological reason why people "sin" was perfect and I am sure you are dead on.
I also think that you could be a great help to people on the fence. When one loses their faith, it is probably the most difficult thing that they have ever gone through. Personally, I feel that if you were to help someone return to full faith and fellowship in spite of their doubts and the issues with the church, then that's wonderful! The church would be a little better because of it. For most of us here it is already too late. But there is no need to feel bad for us. In fact I think most of us are happier than we have ever been. I no longer feel suppressed and under constant pressure to do more, and more, and more. Leaving was the right thing for me. I could never again pay my 10% knowing how it is used (shopping malls, hotels, and businesses), especially since that money is given by people who choose to pay rather than eat! If I ever donate money to the church again, it will be 100% into the fast offering fund where it belongs. I also find it sad that the church only uses fast offerings to help the needy. This money is all donated by the members. How much does the church give out of it's own pockets? Unless I am misinformed the answer is NOTHING!! ZERO. Not a penny.
Sorry to go off like that. But it is the issues like this that make me shake my head and say to myself, "I could never again be associated with such a hypocritical organization." Jesus taught, in the parable of the widow and the rich man, that we should be charitable and give all we can for the benefit of others, because we are pure in heart, not for the respect of men. I do not see the church doing this. Their charitable donations are PR and that is against what Jesus taught. As Jesus put it, "They have their reward." I refuse to be a part of that.
Hi 123, welcome. I am looking forward to what you have to share. It sounds like you've been following our discussion so you're probably aware of my interest in Buddhism. I would greatly appreciate anything you care to tell me about it. polomolok@yahoo.com
Any comments made here out of "pure ignorace" should be corrected in my opinion. I, for one, am interested to know what they are, especially if the comment was my own. I will be the first to admit that I do not know everything. If I am wrong, mis-informed, or just ignorant, I am willing to be corrected.
Hmmm,McKay,
While I totally believe your intentions are noble, the difference is imo, that I'm not...well wait a minute. I was going to say that I'm not trying to start a new church and force people to believe me and force condemnation down their throats if they don't. That is exactly what I believe JS did.
It is true, I should not suppose to think that I know where you are in your thoughts and study of JS. I used to be ultra TBM. But after studying about JS's life, he own words, his belief that he was a king, his absolute abuse of women and his destroying bone fide marriages so he could sleep with these women under penalty that their very families would face eternal damnation, well, to me that is spiritual, sexual abuse to the extreme.
I don't see JS as just a regular guy who we just shouldn't judge. He certainly didn't see himself as just a regular guy with a simple opinion of himself. As I said earlier, he thought of himself as a king, a prophet who had done more for this earth save Jesus only and then he recounted that because he felt like he had kept a church together longer than even Jesus did. JS saw himself above the law in every step of the way. He swindled his own people out of thousands of dollars during his banking scheme in Kirtland, he had no interest in a real job, but just inventing a religion, because as we all know, Christ sells. I don't mean to be blasphamous to your beliefs McKay, but it is true. I know plenty Clergy here in NZ that do it for the big bucks.
Our opinions of JS are very different and that is going to have to be ok. But when the day comes when you wake up and you realize you have absolutely no identity, have no clue where you are going, feel a horrible darkness over you and you don't know why because you paid your tithing, you went to the temple, you did your visiting teaching so everything was supposed to be ok. So, why was I so miserable? Well, when things get to that point, you start digging deep and fast into the inner workings of the organization who sought to stifle you and almost literally destroy you.
Where you and I differ is that I don't believe the people are just portraying bad behavior every so often, I believe the organization itself is corrupt which in turn corrupts the people. I believe JS and BY were absolute blood thirsty con men who had no trouble whatsoever in killing a man or women or child if it suited their needs for absolute power and control over their members. I've spent thousands of dollars travelling back to every Mormon history site in the US. I tell you, after being at Independence MO, and seeing that JS called that the Promised Land, it was obvious he was no prophet or seer as there are places on this planet that are far more beautiful that that mosquito infested humid as H E douple tootpics. JS imo existed within his very own realm of experience. He had no idea of the joys and wonder of anywhere else but where he physically travelled and saw with his own eyes. All he wanted was a place to practice polygamy, masonic rituals, the United Order and rule over his kingdom where he thought he wouldn't get any flack from the US govt. Period.
You may not agree, but from my own research, this is definately the conclusion that I have come up with.
Peace.
Lori
Actually, Lori, your characterization of Brigham Young remdinds me of something....
I've been reading about early LDS history and I came across a reference I had never seen before.
There were allegations that Joseph Smith's brother (Samuel, I think) was murdered by Brigham Young.
Hyrum was supposed to succeed Joseph Smith as President of the Church, but he and Joseph died together. It had been established that if that happened, Samuel was to be next.
But after Joseph and Hyrum died, Samuel got sick, he was bedridden for about a month and then just died. TBMs say that he was just heartbroken by the death of his brothers, but there were early allegations that he was poisoned.
Samuel's wife accused Brigham Young of poisoning Samuel so he could seize power. I think one of the attending doctors also made this accusation.
I'll have to look up the event in more detail.
Has anyone else heard this story?
Well there you have it. You seem to have all the answers so whats the point?
Have fun everyone. Its been a pleasure.
Bye
It's funny you bring that up Ray.
I had that exact same conversation with my missionaries the other day. We sat down and looked at all the different versions of the first vision and I said, "How can you reconcile this?"
They couldn't. They didn't even try to. All they kept saying was "I know this is true." ... God revealed it to them ... they prayed and got an answer... blah, blah, blah.
Well, guess what? I prayed too and I got an answer and it was completely different from theirs. Before I knew anything about Joseph Smith or View of Hebrews or Samuel Spaulding, or the Book of Abraham, I really thought Mormonism could actually be true. I prayed with an open mind and an open heart and I believe I got an answer and it was the exact opposite answer the missionaries were getting.
So, that same day I told them, I prayed too and I got a completely different answer.
Their response? I pray wrong.
How messed up is that?
Without getting angry or insulted, I went into great detail about how Catholics pray, about how I pray, and that my prayers aren't broken or something.
I'm praying wrong... give me a break.
I know you guys don't believe in prayer, but it works for me.
Hopefully, my 1830 BOM will arrive soon. The missionaries and I are going to comb through it and see if there are any changes... Hmm.... They insist the only changes are punctuation ... commas and periods ... and anyone that says different has obviously been tricked by Satan.
So, this should be fun.
McKay,
I used to feel as frightened as you by reading these things, but it was only when I couldn't take the "Betty Crocker" cookie cutter faces at church anymore that I had to look at the meat.
If you have to lurk, then lurk, but don't shut your eyes.
Lori
It has been so interesting to follow the comments from McKay, Ray and others. As devoted Mormons, we defended Joseph Smith, the church, and the entire history even in the face of the facts showing that the church, JS, BY and so on were not what they claimed to be.
So now it boils down to which side is right? We simply cannot stay on the fence on the JS story--as so many LDS prophets state--he either was telling the truth or he was not. Pure and simple. there is no gray area here. If one buys the story, then they must buy the church. If not, they find that while the LDS church may have much good in it, it is based on the lies of a conman.
i fall completely in the camp that JS was a conman, a scheister, a liar. i cannot believe one word the man says. He lied about everything of importance in the history of the LDS church.
For those who continue to believe, I flat out say this YOU ARE DECEIVED.
I cannot debate, conduct open and mutually respectful debate. I cannot understand how, when presented with the facts, that anybody can continue to believe in the lie.
I may be able to respect you as kind human beings, but philosophically, I simply cannot respect your ideas. I find them morally repugnant. Once a person, presented with the facts which conclusively show that JS was a liar, once they know these facts --NOT OPINIONS--FACTS!!!--they continue to perpetuate the lie, I just cannot respect that.
But as people, fellow workers, neighbors, men and women, fellow human beings, I can appreciate your value, sense of humor, and kinship.
I do not hate Mormon people, but I do find Mormonism profoundly repugnant.
Wow McKay,
"your using your freedom only to destroy, as you simply have no answers or anything better to offer that I can see."
Well, I guess perhaps you aren't as loving and as compassionate as you want people to think you are because you have absolutely no idea who I am or what I'm about and what I've created via my music has helped more people than I ever thought possible. We may not be on the same rung of the ladder yet, but please, don't treat me like shit. I deserve much more respect than blanket acusations. If I wanted that I only have to call my TBM family.
"Lori's Side"
Man, what did I do to deserve that? We don't see eye to eye, but I really don't think that was called for. We obviously have not had the same experiences in life, and we have not come to the same conclusions, but bud, your criticism only tells me that you yourself are hurting and you are scratching back because right now that is all you know how to do because someone has threatened your beliefs. Scratch away, it won't change anything. What I've said, Ray, Bonnie and Samuel said aren't "my way" or "their way". Unlike Mormons, we have no desire for anyone to come to our "side" that is a personal journey. I don't want your money, your soul, your time, your talents or anything you have except just your friendship when or if you are willing to share it. I can live without it, but my life is more enriched with it. I don't want you to join anything, to make any promises to me, I don't want you to leave your family or friends.
I refuse to condemn you and frankly be really rude as you have done to me. Why? Because I've been where you are. I was there. However, your words really hurt me McKay. They were really uncalled for. I need you to know that.
Have a good day.
Lori
http://www.mormoninformation.com/changes.htm
Here's another link that I think will help you, Cernovog. Now that I'm typing this, I think I already sent it to you, but I'll send it again just in case. It shows all the changes made to the BoM. It's not complete yet but has enough done that you will find it very helpful.
Lori,
I do not mean to offend, im glad you have found some contentment. Your music is strong, and passionate and VERY creative and you are very talented. As a person I am sure you have much to offer. In many ways I am sure you are reflecting principals I strongly believe in in terms of acceptance, fellowship, and kindness to people better than any member in the church. I am truly sorry.
This is why I dont want to debate anymore. I would rather resepecfylly agree to disagree as your mind is set. My only point is if you and I were great friends and had a "falling out" I could either spend my time trying to destroy you, or just move on. Why do you need a constant borage of morman hate to find fulfillment? Does the hurt run that deep? I have NO idea what has gone on in your life. I dont want to be assumptuos. But whatever it is, again I am sorry.
I have been a great majority of my life where you are. I have learn to overcome my anger. I am not trying to force my belief, but I have learned a principal that I have learned that has helped me greatly. That is. Just turn away, and move on with integrity, rather than seeking to destroy our faith. In doing so it seems you are seeking to destroy me and everything I stand for.
It is a very sensitive subject when we attach eachothers beliefs, as it can seem like a personal attack. There is simply too much to like about all of you for me to spend my time personally atacking your beliefs. And outside of this context their is much that I might admire about you as a person. So this simply might not be the most constructive environment to get to know eachothers stregnths.
I am very sorry, to you, sam, ray, or anyone. But I think in this context we may be asking for trouble.
I can see where you are coming from McKay.
To be perfectly blunt, it hurts me too when I hear Samuel or Lori say that not only do they reject Mormonism, but they also reject Jesus and the Bible, and sometimes, even the possibility that there is a God.
You'll drive yourself crazy trying to get them to fully understand your faith. And actually, I don't fully understand your faith either, but that's okay. :)
That's why Jesus said to wipe the dust from your sandals and move on. You can't spread the Good News to people who aren't open to hear it.
Samuel doesn't want me preaching the Gospel to him. Neither does Lori, so you won't catch me trying to force feed them.
Now to clarify, if I find them in contention with something that is blatantly in error, I will step in and try to explain things.
Say for example, if someone said "I don't like Catholics because they worship the Pope." Of course, I would step in and say, no that's not accurate. That's not what we believe.
All you can do McKay, is be there for them. If you feel personally uncomfortable with a particular question, I'm sure they will respect your choice not to respond.
I'm sure, by the same token, if I were becoming disillusioned with my faith, but I had questions like "How do you define morality without God?" Samuel, or Lori, or Ray or someone would be happy to step in and explain to me how they filled that void in their life.
Anyway, I hope this helps.
Thank you Cernovog,
As an example of what I was stating above about becoming better and stronger with time, we have a new apostle in the quarum of the 12. Deiter F. Uchtdorf. If you listen to him, he has a strong focus on how many good, strong, and sincere people are in many other faiths. And that we should never be so arragount to assume we are better than another. We should respect truth wherever we hear it and respect that much good can come from other faiths. He then goes on to quietly reprimand those in OUR faith that have any degree of arrogance in assuming we, as individuals, are better than another, and says those who do so simply do not understand their faith fully.
This is what I mean. We are gaining people with greater insight, compassion and wisdom as the people are more ready to hear it and accept it. His words have been very consoling and validating for me and gives me much hope for the integrety of our faith.
It does hurt when I hear people mock Christ so openly. No matter how much compassion I may have for their point of view. From my perspective it just hurts deeply, as I hold His name in great reverence. This creates a conundrum between respecting peoples beliefs, perspectives, and faiths.. and defending my own that means so much to me.
It is a difficult line to walk.
McKay
Oh, and one other thing: Lori, I think your characterization of Joseph Smith as some bloodthirsty murderer with no morals who tried to shove his religion down others' throats is unfair. Certainly Smith wasn't perfect. He's not someone I would want my children to emulate, that's even more of a certainty. But to say that he was bloodthirsty? Eh, you're going to have to convince me on that one. Sex-addict, perhaps, but not a cold-blooded killer. And I don't see any credibility in the claim that Smith tried to force religion on others. I think he invited people to question his religious authority and whenever they questioned a little too much, he whipped up a new revelation to solidify his authority--a different attitude entirely. If you disagree, I'd love to hear why. And please make your defense substantive. I think that Smith is an interesting enough character that we don't need to exaggerate his qualities, don't you? :)
BTW sorry I kept deleting my post, I accidently posted my drafts and wanted to add to them
Ok, McKay, 123, etc.
I like this site because personally I feel I can indeed say it how it is according to me. I will never ever back down from saying exactly what I feel JS was. I will never think he isn't anything but a murderer. He killed me. (That is a story for another time).
Like Samuel said. My feelings about the church aren't from feelings or opinions, or anything other than absolute fact. You can read the biographies of the people that were with him from years ago. You can read historical archives from the State of Ohio and Illinois. There is so much information out there that there doesn't even need to be an opinion on this stuff.
You guys may not be where I am, that fine. I had my own journey to go through to pluck up the courage to even read the realities of what Mormonism is, but I'll tell you this, give yourself at least 3 hours and just look at the very least the issues Samuel just brought up or even the list you McKay brought up. Don't go into it trying to defend the church...wait, who am I to tell you what to do, defend if you want, but just read it! Look!! Conquer that fear that was instilled in us from the beginning of our lives, challenge this dreadful god that is supposed to destroy your life if you apostacize and LOOK!
I'm never going to take kindly to rude remarks. I'm not a punching bag, but deep down, again, I remember where you are now. I'm not there anymore and that's why I'm here on an ex-Mo site. And I have to believe that somewhere in you there must be a twinkle of curiosity because why would you come back here?
I have nothing against you. I remember the turmoil myself.
Lori
P.S. Thanks Samuel. I forgot what it meant to have a friend.
Lori: I get the impression that you think I'm some sort of Mormon apologist. I can assure that nothing could be further from the truth. I'm only trying to be objective as I learn more about Mormon history and relate to other ex- and current Mormons who have insights to share. If I in someway failed in that pursuit, please show me how. I'm not saying that as a challenge; I'm speaking as someone who sincerely values your assessment of me as a participant on Mormon Truth.
I understand that you may feel that Joseph Smith "murdered" you. I can relate, very strongly, to that feeling. But in reality, did he *kill* you (or me)? Back in the 19th century was Joseph Smith plotting to "kill" millions of his followers a hundred or more years after his ministry? Undeniably, no. Like I said earlier, the leaders of the Church have/had some terrible qualities. Why exaggerate their faults? Is it necessary to justify our conclusions? I think not.
I'm still learning about Mormonism. I still meet with missionaries and I'm very curious about the early days of the church.
Samuel, I was eager to read that Newsweek article, but I found it disapointing. Oh well.
One of the things I'm researching is what happened to the 11 witnesses? If we are to take them at their word that the golden plates were real, then I need to know about them. Who were they? What happened to them.
Well, I discovered that, with the exception of Joseph Smith's father and two brothers, every single one of them was excommunicated. (Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris were later re-baptized.)
However, I thought Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated for denying Joseph Smith's later revelations. I read a reference to his denial in his belief in angels as being an issue at his re-baptism.
Cowdery explained, in a very lawyer-like manner that he didn't "believe" in angels as a matter of faith, because he "knew" they existed as a matter of fact since he has seen them. Talk about waffling!
I'm continuing my research and investigation. I find it very interesting that he may have been excommunicated for exposing Joseph's amorous misadventures....
123, I'll bring home that book from the library where I read the accusations against Brigham Young. You're right when you say it's speculation. Who knows what really happened? It's still intriguing.
BTW, Joseph Smith had 30 wives? I read an account that claimed the number was 49.
McKay: Just to let you know, I often find Lori's strong opinions against Christ to be hurtful too, but it would be foolish to think she is the only person in the world with such an opinion. You're probably more sensitive to it than I am.
I try not to let it bother me. I know, certainly, that she's just expressing what she truly feels and she's not doing it specifically to take a jab at you or me.
If it bothers you that much, perhaps you should simply take a little break and rejoin us when you feel fresh and renewed. :)
McKay: Thank you for your contribution. I enjoyed reading it, and your vision is inspiring. I can't say that I understand why you believe some of the things you do, but I have to admit you make a strong case for your faith. There are some major difficulties though:
1) You still depend on the golden plates as having existed. We already know that other than plagiarizations from other texts or stories being passed around in the Smith family, the Book of Mormon is not based in reality. Mahonri Moriancumr and his family never existed. Lehi and Ishmael and their descendants never existed. The events describe in the Book of Mormon are either plagiarized from other texts or are fabrications. There are mounds of irrefutable evidence to support this belief. On the other hand, there is no credible evidence to oppose it. So, even if the golden plates did exist, you're right to say that none of us would be converted to Mormonism. There are dozens of reasons why not, but the simplest one is that the golden plates, if existent, have absolutely nothing to do with the Book of Mormon, except perhaps to have served as a prop. This is one reason many exMormons say that the most compelling evidence that led them out of the Church was the realization that the Egyptian funerary papyri, while real, had absolutely nothing to do with the Book of Abraham, other than to serve as a prop.
2) I have always held to the belief, and you affirmed it, that the restoration could not possibly be an event, but is indeed a process. However, the alleged global apostasy has never been sustained by careful research, and in order for Smith's claims to be taken at all seriously, that apostasy must have taken place. The Catholics can accurately claim apostolic succession back to Saint Peter. That much is undeniable. The next question that must be asked is whether the apostolic succession is even relevant. Most Protestants have determined that it is not. They are more inclined to belive in the "apostolic tradition." Mormons cannot side with the Protestants, because that throws out their necessity from the outset. And to my knowledge, no Mormon can persuade any credible historian that the Catholics have not maintained the apostolic succession since Peter's days. This leaves the LDS Church with one final claim: the priesthood leaders were at times corrupt and so their priesthood authority was taken off Earth. Now, supposing that all this were the case, and the priesthood were restored to Joseph Smith, there is still not reason for anyone to be converted to Mormonism. Why? Because there have been corrupt leaders in the church. If corruption led to a loss of the priesthood in the ancient church, then it surely must have caused the loss of authority in the restored church. This is one of those points at which an inspiring vision cannot adequately explain the difficulties in Mormonism.
McKay, believe me when I say that I am not ridiculing your beliefs. But I cannot in good conscience agree with them. There is much at fault in the Church, as we all know. I'm not demanding perfection, but I am demanding truth. To be honest, the single greatest reason I cannot believe in the Church is what I describe in point 2: the Church's existence rests on its authority, but it has no authentic claim to the priesthood today, not exclusively, not at all.
If you have a different opinion, I'd love to hear it. I'm a truth seeker just like you, so don't shy away.
Thanks again for your edifying insights!
OK 123,
obviously you have a rational mind and can discuss issues with some integrety. So I will happily debate with you. Acutally I am tired of debate, debate implies intent to convert to a way of thinking. I just want to discuss things openly. If you want, I will co-host a blog with you as I am working to start my own and am building a website for that purpouse. I would like an environment that is rational and focused on balanced research and study. I do not think I will be here much longer as I do not think hate, blame, accusation, and emotional unrestraint are ways to find truth and share perspectives. I would rather be in an environment that respects beliefs of all religions and would agree there is something to be learned from everyone. I prefer to gravitate to the stregnths of peoples faiths, not weaknesses, and will seek truth wherever I can find it. I would like to share with a Muddhist, Muslim, Catholic, Methodist or anyone in a calm, respectful environment without intent to convert or wrongly discredit.
So now.. You say.
"The events described in the Book of Mormon are either plagiarized from other texts or are fabrications. There are mounds of irrefutable evidence to support this belief."
Give me the sources of fabrications first. I have heard and read of some. But please provide me with them all so I study them for myself and do a personal evaluation.
Thank you for your calming influence and reasoning. I simply cannot debate every accusation toward every member, with such hate and ridcule... and I refuse to do it anymore, its getting exhausting.
But yours are issues we can discuss and review with integrety.
So again, I too believe there is much to be learned from researching the doctrines and history of ANY religion and am totally open to an honest and fair discussion and look into all of them.
Thanks
McKay
Muddhist? wow, typo of the century... Buddhist of course. Sorry by the way for all my typo's. I am already dedicating more time than I should to this, and am simply not up for editing my posts as that would take... yet more time.
I hope my last comment was not offensive to anyone! It was certainly not meant to be. 123, I would definitely like you to expound. I have been Christian all my life until about a year ago so I would be very interested to hear why you claim my views on Jesus and his message are "grossly inaccurate." I am coming from the paradigm of believing the LDS version of Jesus to a non-belief in Jesus. No where have I claimed to be an expert in any area; in fact I have said that I don't know much about other religions. I just pointed out my current personal views so that hopefully Cernovog and McKay could understand a little better where myself, Sam, and Lori are coming from, since we all are ex-Mormon and have formed a very similar belief pattern thus far. I sincerely apologize now if anyone was offended.
I believe I have already explained my views on sin. When I say there is no sin, I mean it in terms of saved or damned. If I murder someone, the sin is not the murder, but the fact that I took the life of another living being. Therefore, I believe that when the time comes to pay for that sin, it will be to the individual whom I sinned against, not to god. I am not nearly far enough in my new beliefs to even begin to explain what and how the justice system works in the next life. For now, it is just something that I assume I will find out when I get there. In the meantime, I honestly try to not sin against anyone, and if you saw me in action it would probably look very much like a Christian way. Even though I do not believe in marriage, I still honor my marriage vows because I made a commitment and I intend to honor that until one of us dies or we get officially divorced. So hopefully you can see that just because I have rejected the Jesus idea, it does not mean that I have become a wild child who sleeps around and does anything he wants because it feels good. I can honestly say that I am still almost temple worthy except that I no longer have a testimony of the church, believe in Jesus, sustain the current leaders, pay tithing, or wear garments. Oh, and associate with people or groups who's views are contrary to the church. I have never cheated on my wife. I tasted wine once and didn't even like it. I have no desire whatsoever to smoke or do drugs. So while I believe there is no sin, I have exercised enough self control and common sense to continue living a moral life. Why did I take the time to explain all this again? Because I feel that I could very much be comfortable with Buddhism and its concepts of sin etc. Another thing that attracts me to Buddhism is the fact that it does not require you to abandon or change your beliefs. Anyone can be Buddhist and still have their own personal beliefs.
If you want to email me please direct it to polomolok@yahoo.com. It's not a huge deal to me to continue the discussion. I believe for myself that Christianity is not true, but I do not deny or criticize anyone who does believe it. So, honestly, if you think my views are distorted, that's okay with me. Maybe they are. If they are, I will discover that for myself in due time. But if you wish to send me an email and explain, perhaps something you say will open my eyes and help me see things differently. You mentioned that my views sounded like yours used to, so I figure that it can't hurt to listen to someone who has been where I am now.
Not just king, he proclaimed himself King of the World. He set up leadership positions for the world during the Millenium. He would be king and each member of the Quorum would be a prince under King Joseph ruling a designated region.
Precisely. If he was just a "prophet" of Christ, then, um...why would he have proclaimed HIMSELF king, isn't that spot supposed to be held for Christ?
Methinks that the gradiosity of having a huge following waiting with baited breath for every single word that came out of your mouth really blew up his ego to a very dangerous degree.
Lori
Waitaminute.....
IF the Book of Mormon is a lie, and IF Joseph Smith made it all up for his own purposes....
Then, why would he secretly have himself proclaimed King of the World during the Millenium???
Isn't the Millenium just something he made up?
Does this imply that he himself believed the BoM to be true???
This is weird....
If I remember right, the Millenium was a Christian concept that existed long before JS.
IMO, he had to keep the "King" part seperate from the masses just as he did polygamy. I think the first Mormons were gullible, but they weren't stupid. By the time JS declared himself king, many of his followers had left him. They diehards that stayed had lost all their money at the Kirtland banking fraud, all or most of their property either from having to leave it in Kirtland and/or Independence and still believed him to be a prophet, although the more you read the journals, the more you see that even these people had been pushed to their limits and were doubting. However, I think over the pulpit they were still fed mostly soggy milk. Had they been openly taught about polygamy or his wanting to be king or even to overthrow the US govt, I think that for many of them, this would be the last straw.
IMO, further, my hypothesis is that JS, and Sidney Ridgon along with Oliver Cowdrey knew full well that the BofM was a fraud. I think they did it to make money and to control the masses. I futher think that they never imagined that it would meet such scrutiny as it has today, and if it did, they had the die hard "it was translated by the gift and power of god, and who are we to challenge that?". Many people back then were prone to folk lore, the Occult, and magic, so to have someone say they had seen a vision of whatever, wasn't too big of a stretch. I personally don't think JS ever wanted to work an honest days work and as we all know religion is great money.
What exactly is "Reformed Egyptian" anyway?
My 2 cents.
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
Back in my TBM days, a definition or example that satisified me about reformed Egyptian was one that is used today. We all know Japanese has it's own writing system. However, a way to make the language easier to learn or read by foreigners is to use roman letters to spell Japanese words. Ex: Konnichi-wa, Ikimasho, Ichi, Ni, San, Shi, etc. This is an example of reformed Japanese. So basically, the Book of Mormon was written in Egyptian using Hebrew characters. This is the explanation that I have heard, and to a TBM, it is buyable.
Another thing that seems odd to me about the Kinderhook plates...
I will briefly relate the story in case any readers might not be familiar with it. After J.S. had published the BoM, some men brought some brass plates to J.S. claiming that they had found them buried in the ground along with human remains. J.S. took an immediate interest in the plates claiming that the markings on them were similar to those on the gold plates from which he had translated the BoM. He immediately went to work translating the plates. He soon produced a story from the plates. It all turned out to be a hoax when the men who had found the plates admitted that they had made the plates themselves and scratched the engravings onto them. They admitted that they had done so in order to test J.S. to see whether or not he could indeed translate ancient documents. Of course, J.S. failed the test by translating bogus plates, proving to the world that he was no more a prophet than anyone else.
Now I have a question about this... Let's put ourselves in J.S. shoes for a moment. Let's imagine that we had produced the BoM and we knew that the gold plates were BS and there was no such thing as an angel "Moroni" or "Nephi" or whoever it was. Knowing this, why would J.S. so easily fall for this gag? Now think about it for a second. If J.S. knew that there were no gold plates, why would he so anxiously jump at this opportunity to prove the BoM true when he knew he had made up the whole "plates" story?
I am not trying to defend J.S. but I am trying to look at this problem objectively. I don't know the answer to this question but it appears to me that J.S. really did believe what he was saying. He honestly and truthfully believed that he had gold plates and was visited by angels. Otherwise, he would have seen through this trap right away. Was he delusional? Was he deceived by dark angels? Whatever it was, it appears obvious to me that he believed it all. Thoughts anyone?
mckay said...
Lori,
I read the book online Wife No. 19". It's Very interesting, and sad. The concept of Blood atonement and mountain meadows seriously makes me sick to my stomach. I just dont get it, and their is simply no way to reconsiliate this is my head and I will never defend it. Quite frankly, there is no defense for it. Some of what was preached and the way women were treated and people repressed seriously discusts me.
Ray,
Thats one of the most difficult aspect of JS life to explain. It seems all but totally conclusive that at the very least, JS believed everything he was teaching. Was he completely delusional? A liar so brilliant that he convinced himself? or telling the truth? At the very least he never denied it, nor did the 11 witnesses, even after they would have every right and reason to discredit JS.
This has to be disconcerting even to the non believer. No?
From what I have come to know, taking one side or the other involves the dismissing of many fact that are simply hard to dismiss.
Although most of the evidence "for" JS has to do with peoples charicter and human nature. Most of the evidence "against" has to do with the facts surrounding the events. Does this sound reasonable?
Ray,
You mean the BoM was written in Hebrew using Egyptian characters. ;)
Going back to the Japanese analogy, the Japanese stole their alphabet from China. Every couple of years, they'd go raid China and come back with a few extra letters.
Today, there are three alphabets in Japan, and the letters don't all mesh perfectly with the sounds they need to make.
I personally have no problem understanding the concept of reformed Egyptian.
Now, Ray, to answer your question, remember that Joseph Smith may have made up the BoM, but that doesn't mean that golden plates, ancient writing and other such artifacts didn't exist.
When an archaeological find that seems to validate his hoax conveniently appears, he simply took advantage of it, just as he did with the Book of Abraham.
Now, I always wondered why he didn't tell the people of Kirtland "I can't translate these scrolls. Translation is a gift given to me by God only for divine purposes." Instead, he makes up this wild account that later would be easily disputed with the discovery of the Rosetta Stone (discovered in 1799; and ancient Egyptian was translated in 1822).
But, I listened to that podcast you reccomended and they explained it well. At the time, Joseph's leadership was falling apart, people were losing confidence in him over some bad real estate deals and false prophecies.
When the scrolls showed up, a convenient little miracle was exactly what he needed to quell dissent and get people excited about him again.
The scrolls and the excitment over his "power" of translation was fodder for many exciting stories and a good distraction from his failings.
I don't know what was going on at the time of the kinderhook plates, but again, maybe they showed up at a convenient time -- a time when he needed to perform another miracle to cement his position as God's prophet.
Going back to being declared King... what good does it do you to be secretly declared King of a world and time that you personally don't believe in (and if you were wrong and it does exist, you'd know you'd never actually be King)?
Secret polygamy I can understand. The benefit of that is obvious.
But being a secret King? Maybe it just illustrates his tremendous ego.
If my understanding of the Lehi family is correct, they were originally from Egypt and immigrated to Jerusalem. So I would assume they spoke Egyptian in the home. I am pretty sure I meant written in Egyptian with Hebrew characters. However, this is a detail that doesn't really matter. My point, that I think you understood, is that it was written in one language using the writing system of another language. I believe there have been discoveries of this type, where professionals could recognize the characters but could not make heads or tails of what it said. Before I say much more, I need to find more information about it as it could be something that was made up by church defenders. Has anyone ever heard this before?
McKay, as you put it, yes it is disconcerting. There is evidence for both sides. However, they can't both be true. Like you, I am willing to admit it when the evidence points away from my argument. A judge has to look at all the information and evidence presented by both sides and make a decision. Sometimes the judge is wrong in his decision. Innocent men have paid for crimes that they didn't commit. The only way to wade through the evidence and come to a conclusion is by human reasoning, which is not always right.
As most of you know, the Book of Abraham was my testimony breaker. Now, if the church would come out and say something like, "There is proof that the BoA was made up by Joseph Smith. However, he did it to help the members keep their faith in him...." They would have to admit he lied, but at least they would be doing the right thing by being honest about it. If I was still TBM I probably would have bought that story and still been an active member today. Instead they say, "Well, part of the scroll was never found so that must be the part that JS translated." or "There was a deeper hidden message that regular translators couldn't see." or "JS didn't need to have the actual scroll in order to translate it." etc... These are all pathetic and desperate excuses. The more the church lies about this and many things, the more I am turned off by it.
That's really cool Samuel. Thanks for that.
Btw, any podcasts coming anytime soon? hint...hint...hint...:-)
Lori
Hey guys, I haven't been around since Sunday because I've been working so hard on this year's election. Last night was the primary and my candidate, who was predicted to carry only 24% of the vote compared to another (terrible) candidate who was supposed to win over 60% of the vote. The only thing the other guy had going for him was sharing the name of a famous politician (now dead) and his appeal to racist voters. Thanks to the massive grassroots efforts of me and dozens of other people, we were able to mobilize tens of thousands of voters and sway them to our side, and won a landslide victory! Now we just have to work on kicking out the incumbent, but that'll be the easier part :) I was shaking with excitement last night, so I just had to share.
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McKay: Yeah, sure. I have no problem co-hosting a blog with you. That should be fun. We can talk about some of the inspirations for the Book of Mormon once that gets set up.
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Ray: You haven't offended me, don't worry about it. It's not very often that I get offended. Neither you nor anyone else has the power to force me to feel a certain way, and I'm certainly not going to bother making myself feel bad. I think everyone else should be aware of that part of me, since I treat people the same way. I don't hold back my comments or opinions for fear that someone might be offended because I recognize the fact that we choose to interpret and feel things in whichever way we choose. I assume that since we're all capable of adult emotional maturity, we should all take responsibilities for our thoughts and feelings and recognize the fact that most people in life are going to disagree with their opinions and leave things at that.
I'll send you an email and we can discuss some of those other things in more depth if you like.
123,
Hey that's great about your election! Congratulations!
And I totally respect and agree with you on choosing whether or not to be offended. If you say something and I am offended and angered by it, then have I not given control of myself over to you?
I am curious as to your background, religious/spiritual beliefs, etc. You haven't really told us much about yourself.
I'll be watching for your email. I probably won't be around for a few days as I have several exams coming up soon.
This blog has surely attracted some very intelligent people. All of you are much better writers and better at explaining yourselves than I am. Thus far, it has been a true pleasure to interact and share ideas will ALL of you! I admire your respect, honesty, & integrity. I admire all of you! And I really mean that.
Ray: Thanks for the compliments, encouragement, and so forth. We're lucky to have you as well.
I know this may seem petty, but I've always resented the belief that if something I've said offends someone and they become upset over it, that I'm controlling them. That's absolutely untrue. We're still in control of ourselves, even when we aren't functioning as the most rational person in the world. That person is still choosing to be upset. And they definitely aren't under my control, because if they were, I sure wouldn't go through the bothersome task of having them be angry with me, requiring me to invest even more of my energy to overcoming the poor communication and hurt feelings, etc.
It seems like everyday I hear someone say that and it's a bold lie. Most people won't listen to my explanation in person, though. They're too busy resenting the fact that "I" am controlling them, which leads them to resent me further, and on and on.
This is obviously one of my pet peeves. Heh, anyway, I wish you the best of luck on your exams.
Ray, why don't you believe in marriage? I don't either and wanted to know your take on it.
Thanks,
Lori
Just wanted everyone to know that I get here whenever I can, and I'm glad we can leave comments now.
Perhaps I'll leave some deeper stuff later.
Thanks.
Sorry everyone. I've been busy with school plus went on a much needed vacation over the weekend.
123,
After giving your last comment some thought, I realize that you are absolutely correct. We are all in control of ourselves and we each choose how we will react to another person or circumstance. I wouldn't classify it as a lie, however. What I said was incorrect but it was said out of ignorace, not with the intent to deceive.
I did very well on one exam and not so well on the other!
Lori,
I gave some of my thoughts about it already, including the necessity for genetic variation, etc. Also, I have noticed that when people get married they are in the "twiterpated" or "fairytale" stage. They both do and say the perfect things to each other. When they get married, they think the other is perfect. When this relationship starts out with such high expectations, disaster is going to come when they start seeing the flaws in each other. How many married people do you know who are actually and truly happy? In my experience, which could be inaccurate, there are very few. I think marriage is a major cause of depression and stress.
When two people start seeing the flaws in each other, they immediately begin to judge and accuse the other person of being "fake" and "insincere" when they were dating. They become depressed when their spouse won't act a certain way. This adds to the stress and a huge snowball effect occurs.
I think this is especially true of Mormon marriages since so much emphasis is put on being perfect and worthy. When the priesthood holder slips a cuss word, he is immediately unworthy of his priesthood. When they begin to see each other flaws, the twiterpated stage fades and real life with the person begins.
Then they become so familiar with each other that all the excitement is gone. When you touch, it is no longer exciting like it used to be. You know what your spouse is going to say. With this familiarity comes the desire for that excitement they once had. I'll speak for men because I am a man. Men naturally want variety (is this a wicked thing or could it be the natural instinct to mix genetics?). All married men I have ever known will check out a hot girl walking by; this is mans desire or instinct. It is normal and does not mean the man is a pervert. In any marriage, when a man begins to express his desire for variety, he is immediately labeled as untrue and unfaithful. This is a great source of stress and depression in the marriage. The sex life is gone and man begins to look elsewhere for love and acceptance (back to the twiterpated stage when your girl thinks you're perfect). This is where porn and affairs enter the equasion.
I don't know if other men see it this way, but I certainly do. Lori, I would love to hear your thoughts, from a woman's perspective.
Religion teaches that men are wicked and unworthy for having this natural desire. Why would god make my body, give it this desire, and then damn me to hell for it? This is another reason I can no longer believe in religion; it supresses man's basic instincts and makes him feel worthless and awful for just being what he is.
How about those ads for LDS Family Services? They totally pressure unwed mothers to give away their baby. Their theme is "I didn't give her up. I gave her more." I feel sorry for these poor brainwashed girls. What the church is really telling them is that because they are unwed, they are unworthy to be a mother. This is a lie! I think most women have that natural desire and instinct to care for and nurture a child. This doesn't come only with marriage! The church just wants these children to end up in a "good" Mormon home. If an unwed mother keeps her baby, that baby has a lower chance of being raised good and faithful to Mormonism. After all, the mother is slightly less wicked than a murderer and the church just won't allow that if they can help it.
I have said this many times. I look to nature for my answers and I do not see animals getting married and divorced. I do not see animals getting baptized and paying tithing. What I DO see is animals being what they are, reproducing, and not worrying about being saved or damned. They just live their lives and do what they do. Nature created me and "In Nature I Trust".
"They that deny God destroy man's nobility: For certainly man is of kin to the beasts by this body; and if he is not kin to God by his spirit, he is a base and ignoble creature."
-- Sir Francis Bacon
Sir Francis Bacon says it more harshly, certainly, than I would have in my own words. Although this is a matter of faith and personal belief, I tend to subscribe to this philosophy.
Denying carnality is not some sadistic punishment God inflicts on us as a cruel joke. Rather, it is a means to seperate our spirit from our body.
Our bodies will decay and die, but our spirit will live on.
Supressing the desires of our bodies gives the spirit power over the body. This is not an exclusively Christian practice. Many belief systems incorporate fasting and meditation into their regimen as a means of empowering the spirit.
Although I don't believe in it, I like the Mormon imagery of a pre-existence and I think Mormons (and perhaps ex-Mormons too) have an easier time understanding this concept using this metaphor.
When we exert dominance over our bodies, by fasting or abstaining from sex, it is like we are lifting the veil that was placed over us and getting a glimpse of our spiritual selves.
Again, I don't believe in a pre-existence, but I like the metaphor.
It seems just silly to allow our bodies to rule us, to tell us when to eat, when to go to the bathroom, when to have sex. We, as human beings, should exert our will over our bodies. *I* decide when its time to eat. *I* decide when it's appropriate to have sex.
Ray, when you look at animals for your guidance, you are setting an unacceptably low standard for yourself and for mankind.
You don't see animals farming, vaccinating themselves, or creating art, music or literature either. A man is more than the sum of his parts. You are more than a mere biological machine, certainly.
Animals merely exist. Men live.
Ray:
Some religions teach that men because of their natural desires, but not all. I'm going to assume that you're referring to Christianity (since you've already told us that you're "over" it) and tell you that that construction is not consistent with Jesus' teachings. Jesus himself was human and susceptible to the same temptations and desires as every other human, and yet he did not fall from grace. That says that Christianity believes that it is behavior that is sinful, not the soul. If you read Paul's letters, you find very strong language that describes "the flesh" or "natural desires" as death and "the spirit" or "spiritual desires" as life. It's true that Jesus taught that life is not about our physical plane of existence; he taught that we are of a divine nature and that it is that spiritual component of man that is important. Taking Paul and Jesus' teachings together, you will see that in Christianity, bringing natural desires under your control cannot possibly make you feel "worthless and awful." If one does feel that way , I can only assume that he has misconstrued Christ's teachings, which are designed to edify the follower and encompass him in a spirit of love.
**You've expressed an interest in Buddhism, so in the interest of saving you time, you should either come to a new understanding about man's falliblility or find a different spiritual path to follow, because the Buddha's understanding of human corruption and suppression of natural instincts, etc., is very similar to Jesus'.**
I went to LDS Family Services years ago. At the time I was 15 and the psychologist asked me about where I wanted to go on a mission. [Nowhere.] Then, like a complete religious fanatic he became aggressive about me being an "anti-Mormon", even thought all I had said was that I didn't want to go on a mission because I didn't believe the church's claims. Absolutely arrogant and self-righteous toward me after that, he would make references to my alleged atheism and soullessness and I stopped going back shortly after... I always thought the ads were not in good taste. I'm glad someone agrees with me (I'm not crazy!!) They had them in the seminary buildings too, for some reason. :-/
Looking to animals as your moral authority is absolutely absurd. I don't feel the need to go into excruciating detail as to why because Cernovog did a pretty good job at that. (By the way, Cernovog, did you deliberately choose a controversial quote from a Rennaissance-era statesmen because of the little mess your pope is in right now with the Islamic right? Whether intentional or coincidental, it gave me a good laugh) But I would like to add that the "nature created me, so in 'nature I trust'" doctrine is problematic for a few reasons. First, nature doesn't create. If it did, it would cease to be natural--nature being governed by predetermined laws without provisions for obedience or rebellion, and creation requiring an intelligence to carry it out. Second, because there was a creation, there must have been a creator (for simplicity's sake: God) who defined those natural laws. Because of the unique nature of man, it stands to follow that it is to Him whom we must look to be the guiding force behind our moral laws as well.
>>If you have a different opinion, I'd love to hear from you. I'll get back to answering some of the other comments later, but I'm pressed for time at the moment.
I think most of you have misunderstood what I am trying to say. I believe that nature is god. In my last comment I said that I look to nature, not just to animals. I also said it has many aspects.
One aspect is definitely the animal kingdom. Another is the fundamental laws you mentioned. Another is our study and understanding of nature via biology, chemistry, archeology, etc. All of these (and probably others) compose what I would call nature.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. Nature does indeed create. Remember that, IMO, nature is not only the physical world, but also the force that governs the laws and gives life. Nature is very much intelligent. When I was conceived, nature did it's little miracle and I am the product. Nature designed my body and gave me life, and that is why I believe that nature is god. My concept of god is really not that much different than yours, other than the name. I believe nature created me and gave me life. You believe god created you and gave you life. Really, the only difference is the name.
It's not like I left Christianity and resorted to a "Lord of the Flies" type of situation. :) Maybe we had better change the subject. The only reason I said all this was because Lori asked me about my views on marriage.
Hi Ray,
I get what you are saying. No worries from this island at the bottom of the world.
I have my misgivings about marriage too. Certainly the marriage of most women before the year 2000 or so where women were owned, broodmares, helpmeets, slaves, and had to literally relinquish her identity at the alter and take on someone else's name. How cruel is that?
Thanks,
Lori
www.steppinupmusic.com
All I can say is WOW. I like the site and the topics, but the posts are so long, especially when there are 120 to read thru to get caught up. Good grief.
Anyway, interesting commentary, and that's coming from an active mormon.
Bishop Rick,
Welcome to "Mormon Truth" my friend and thanks for the input. I'm glad that you like what you found here. I just checked out your blog and was excited to find that you hit on so many things that I've been saying, thinking and believing for a very long time or since my journey began, just a little over a year ago. Isn't common sense and logic a wonderful thing?
I'm sure that it took you a while to get caught up on this post, but I'm glad that you found the commentary to be interesting and hopefully you'll stick around and add your 2 cents when you find a topic that interests you. I only recently added the option of leaving comments a couple of months ago, so they are coming in now, pretty much all over my blog.
I also have 2 podcasts and 2 other blogs that were created for the podcasts that you can check out if you haven't already.
I Hope to hear more from you soon as I think you have great insights and will be able to provide all of us some great thought provoking comments. Also, I really hope you keep writing your blog as well, as you have a great thing going.
Take care,
Samuel
Bishop Rick,
I totally echo Samuel's comments. Your blog asks some really good questions. Your latest one is something I've wondered all my life.
Thanks,
Lori
www.steppiupmusic.com
Dear Samuel,
Still patiently waiting for a new podcast...wink...wink...nudge...nudge.
While we are waiting, if you'd like you can feel free to go vote for me over at the US Army's www.1800goguard.com/bands I'm competing with folks from all over the country.
Thanks in advance if you choose to vote!
Lori Crandall
www.steppinupmusic.com
I think, Sam, that you misinterpreted what I was saying. I wonder if you were implying that I'm a "die-hard" Christian, just because I'm arguing in its defense? If the same question were raised about Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism, I would still argue in defense of those religions since the goal was to educate those having difficulty understanding their doctrines and purposes.
I'm looking forward to your post tonight. I would like to see the way you interpret things. There is a comment I was about to leave about religious types who think they know so much, but I'll wait until your next post since that would seem to be a more appropriate place to start that discussion. I also want to take issue up with your assertions about religion. I think that because we all grew up in a self-destructive cult, there is a tendency to have a very cynical and naive sense of what religion is and what it tries to accomplish. It should be interesting to discuss that as well.
Glad to hear things are settling down, and again, I'm excited to read your next post!
First of all, I think this comment section gets too long :-)
It took minutes for my ISDN to download it.
Maybe there should be a new posting by you, Sam?
Second I wanted to post an interesting link of a book I read recently.
It is called "Beyond belief - a buddhist critique of fundamentalist christianity".
The book is very interesting and analyzes how absurd christian fundamentalists, such as Eric "Bikini" Hoffman are.
Of course, in its own agenda, the author contrasts the unhealthy attitude of these fundamentalists with the teachings of the Buddha.
Here are two links, one html, one pdf:
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=Beyond%20Belief%3A%20a%20Buddhist%20Critique%20of%20Christianity
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/beyond-belief02.pdf
Spoiler warning: The book also points out many contradictions within the bible, so for all TBMs: be careful, or you might lose your soul forever.
Anyway, I found this book very informative and interesting, especially because of the contrast between Christianity and Buddhism.
Chris
I agree, it is time for a new posting and a new comments list imo.
Thanks in advance Samuel should you choose to do it! :-)
Lori
http://www.macabremenace.com/entropyblurb.pdf
It's all there, folks, my mission and and that crap.
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