It sure looks like it to me, when it is being openly discussed on national TV shows, like "The Today Show", especially by a prominent black woman, Janet Langhart Cohen, in regards to Mitt Romney and the upcoming US Presidential election. William and Janet Langhart Cohen have written a new book entitled "Love In Black And White" discussing racism, religion, love and their marriage.
In any case, it most certainly isn't a good thing for the Mormon Hierarhcy to hear this being openly discussed, especially when Mitt Romney himself, the Mormon in question, refuses to discuss his religion and refers everyone to church headquarters, if they want answers about what Mormons believe.
Oh, he doesn't know yet what he believes and "it isn't his job" to explain why he calls himself a "devout Mormon" and to explain what that means and what he and his church believe?
Call me crazy, but the man was both a Bishop and Stake President and is very well versed in Mormon theology, teachings, doctrines and history. If he isn't, he's a complete idiot, with the callings and experience he's had. Don't let this slick snake-oil salesmen fool you.....as he knows exactly what he's saying and not saying and he isn't the clueless, bumbling idiot he pretends to be when asked about Mormonism.
The fact is, the Mormon Hierarchy can't continue to run from their racist teachings anymore, because that's all they've been doing since their beginning, and especially since 1978 and they are now being exposed. Thankfully, Mitt Romney's run for President, is helping to expose the Mormon cult and their evil, vile racism, along with many other horrific beliefs and teachings, for all the world to finally see, in all its shame.
It's funny to see how they've been trying so desperately to hide everything, especially in the new Internet age(which caught them completely by surprise), and they just keep getting exposed more and more everyday by me, other ex-Mormons and even "The Today Show." It's about time the world knew the truth!!
So, the best thing that happened for the world, is Mitt Romney running for President. The worst thing that could have happened to Mormonism and the Mormon Hierarchy and their cult, is Mitt Romney running for President. But, they are too dumb to realize that, in their overzealousness to get a Mormon in the Whitehouse, which dates back to Joseph Smith, when he ran for President and failed miserably.
After all, the "US Constitution will literally hang by a thread" and it will be the Mormons that rush in and save it, right? What better place to be, to make that happen, than in the Whitehouse, with Hinckley or Monson on speed dial, right? I always wondered how that was going to happen. Of course those of us that have escaped the Mormon cult, now realize that was just pure fantasy and bullshit and the Mormons are never gonna save anybody from anything, let alone the US Constitution.
In any case, I'm sure many current and future Mormon cult members and investigators, will now be taking a 2nd look at what exactly Mormonism has taught and believed since 1820, that otherwise wouldn't have and will they ever be surprised and shocked at what they find.
America wants to know and the world wants to know and they have a right to know the "real truth" and they are now finding out about these horrific racist teachings, that the Mormon Hierarchy REFUSES to apologize for and repudiate and that they've tried to sweep into their closet full of too many skeletons to count.
I've said it a thousand times, and I'll say it a thousand more, but it's the truth and reality, fully supported by the facts. The fact that they still profit from them and sell these racist teachings everyday in BYU, Deseret and now Seagull bookstores, says it all for me.
In this video clip, Janet Langhart Cohen, makes some great points about the history of Mormon racism and I want to go through them one by one, to show that what she said is exactly true. One thing she was wrong on though, is that it ended in 1978...which it clearly didn't. Just look at the November 2006 Ensign centerfold of GAs(pages 64 and 65) and you won't find one black man there anywhere, just like pre-1978. So, nothing has changed at all!! Like the old saying says; "the more things change, the more they stay the same."
Blacks may have been given the Priesthood in 1978, but all of the Mormon Hierarchy's racist teachings, regarding the origins of the black race and that they were cursed in the pre-existence, have stood and as I mentioned, are still sold and supported by the current Mormon Hierarchy, including Hinckley, The First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles.
Also, even if the Mormon racism had officially ended in 1978, some explanation, other than "God is this giant, raving, lunatic racist in the sky and we were just waiting on him to change his racist mind", is necessary, isn't it?
They really expect the world to believe that the world's "one and only true God" of "the one and only true church" , Mr. "all powerful of the Universe and all creation", that loves everyone equally, was just a big bad racist until 1978 and then came around, because they prayed and pleaded a lot? Are you kidding me? I mean, that's laughable, but shows how stupid the Mormon Hierarchy is and how stupid they think the world is to buy their BS!!
I guess it would make sense though, that if the Mormon God is a racist(which he clearly is and was), that he would put in place racist Prophets and Apostles, to fully support and carry out his racist teachings and doctrines, right?
Janet Langhart Cohen said:
"But if you understand the Mormon faith, up until 1978, an interracial marriage, the Mormons would have considered a sin, they would have considered me, as an African American cursed, that God didn't hear my prayers, that I was inferior."
So, up until 1978, was interracial marriage considered a sin? Well, Kimball claims it isn't "a sin", but "not expedient" and then goes on to list all the reasons why. As I quoted in the above video, Brigham Young not only believed it was a SIN, but promoted and taught "death on the spot" and said that "it will always be so" and Mark E. Peterson made it clear that his posterity would be "cursed", if there was even "ONE DROP OF NEGRO BLOOD" in his children.
So please allow me to share the following quotes, from former Mormon Prophets and Apostles, regrading interracial marriage and I'll then let you all decide where Mormonism stood on the issue and in my opinion, still stands on the issue, since once again, none of these statements have ever been repudiated, apologized for or corrected, in any way, shape or form and are still sold today, in Mormon Hierarchy owned and run bookstores:
Brigham Young:
Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).
Mark E. Peterson:
We must not inter-marry with the Negro. Why? If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would all be cursed as to the priesthood. . . . If there is one drop of Negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse. (Race Problems—As They Affect the Church, speech by Mark E. Petersen, BYU, August 27, 1954).
Spencer W. Kimball:
Cultural differences pose dangers for marriage. When I said you must teach your people to overcome their prejudices and accept the Indians, I did not mean that you would encourage intermarriage. I mean that they should be brothers, to worship together and to work together and to play together; but we must discourage intermarriage, not because it is sin. I would like to make this very emphatic. A couple has not committed sin if an Indian boy and a white girl are married, or vice versa. It isn’t a transgression like the transgressions of which many are guilty. But it is not expedient. Marriage statistics and our general experience convince us that marriage is not easy. It is difficult when all factors are favorable. The divorces increase constantly, even where the spouses have the same general background of race, religion, finances, education, and otherwise. (58-08)
The interrace marriage problem is not one of inferiority or superiority. It may be that your son is better educated and may be superior in his culture, and yet it may be on the other hand that she is superior to him. It is a matter of backgrounds. The difficulties and hazards of marriage are greatly increased where backgrounds are different. For a wealthy person to marry a pauper promises difficulties. For an ignoramus to marry one with a doctor’s degree promises difficulties, heartaches, misunderstandings, and broken marriages.
When one considers marriage, it should be an unselfish thing, but there is not much selflessness when two people of different races plan marriage. They must be thinking selfishly of themselves. They certainly are not considering the problems that will beset each other and that will beset their children.
If your son thinks he loves this girl, he would not want to inflict upon her loneliness and unhappiness; and if he thinks that his affection for her will solve all her problems, he should do some more mature thinking.
We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs. (0/0/59) (Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, edited by Edward L. Kimball [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982], 303.)
Boyd K. Packer says:
"Now, one other subject. It's been the policy of the Church--and it's been spoken on many occasions--that as the gathering of Israel is in Mexico for the Mexicans, in Tonga for the Tongans, in China for the Chinese, and so on, so has been our counsel as it relates to marriage."
"We've always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians. The counsel has been wise. You may say again, "Well, I know of exceptions." I do, too, and they've been very successful marriages. I know some of them. You might even say, "I can show you local Church leaders or perhaps even general leaders who have married out of their race." I say, "Yes--exceptions." Then I would remind you of that Relief Society woman's near-scriptural statement, 'We'd like to follow the rule first, and then we'll take care of the exceptions.'"
"For every exception we can show you tens and hundreds, and I suppose thousands, who were not happy. Plan, young people, to marry into your own race. This counsel is good, and I hope our branch presidents are listening and paying attention. The counsel is good."
"Things are not always easy when we receive counsel, whether the counsel is to return to serve among our own people or whether it is counsel to marry among our own culture and racial backgrounds. Always there is a decision. Always we can say, "We're an exception." But I say, in the words of that Relief Society sister, 'As for me, I'm going to follow the rule first; and then, should there be an exception, perhaps that will be made known.'" (Follow The Rule, by Boyd K. Packer given on January 14, 1977.)
June 9,1978 - First Presidency announces "priesthood now available to all worthy male members." First Presidency secretary Francis M. Gibbons writes that this change "seemed to relieve them of a subtle sense of guilt they had felt over the years."
June 17,1978 - Church News headline "Interracial Marriage Discouraged" in the same issue which announces authorization of priesthood for those of black African descent. Sources at church headquarters indicate that Apostle Mark E. Petersen requires this emphasis.
So, at one time, according to Brigham Young, it required your life and you deserved "death on the spot", it was such a serious issue. Then Kimball strongly discourages it, as does the entire Mormon Hierarchy, but says that it isn't a sin. Boyd K. Packer says, "It's been the policy of the Church--and it's been spoken on many occasions--that as the gathering of Israel is in Mexico for the Mexicans, in Tonga for the Tongans, in China for the Chinese, and so on, so has been our counsel as it relates to marriage."
So, it's at least crystal clear that the Mormon Hierarchy was and still is against interracial marriage, but they tolerate it, only because they have to...but you've all been warned against it and know how they feel regarding the issue. Also, don't think that you are like Mormon leaders or the Mormon Hierarchy that have interracial marriages and that you are "an exception."
I do find it amazing, ironic and sad, as I noted above, that in the very same issue of the Church News, where they announced that Blacks could finally have the Priesthood, after 148 years of racism; that they had to throw on the headline of "Interracial Marriage Discouraged." I think that pretty much says it all and tells us how they really feel and that if it had really been up to them(and if they didn't have to cave to the pressures of society and the threat of losing their tax-exempt status); things never would have changed. Once again, in my opinion, giving blacks the Priesthood was a financial decision, just like every other thing they do.
So, once again, Janet Langhart Cohen said:
"But if you understand the Mormon faith, up until 1978, an interracial marriage, the Mormons would have considered a sin, they would have considered me, as an African American cursed, that God didn't hear my prayers, that I was inferior."
So, I've now covered the interracial marriage issue and what the Mormon Prophets and Apostles have taught regarding that and it's clear that official Mormon doctrine states, that all blacks are cursed with "black skin", a "flat nose", are the "seed of Cain", are an "inferior race" and "representative of Satan" himself, were "unworthy in the pre-existence/first estate", etc, etc, as I clearly show in the video. So, now what about the last part, where she commented that the Mormon Hierarchy taught that "God didn't hear my prayers, that I was inferior?"
Well, I've also covered the inferior part, but I haven't yet found anything specific in the Mormon doctrines or teachings, saying that God didn't hear the prayers of black people, but the circumstantial evidence is pretty damn powerful and overwhelming, showing that that would obviously have to be the case.
Considering that in July 1967, the Church-wide Priesthood Bulletin prohibited women from praying in sacrament meeting, and the ban stayed in effect until December 29, 1978, that would also have had to obviously include all black women and probably men too, since they couldn't have the Priesthood, which was obviously a requirement to pray in Sacrament meeting at that time. How many of you even knew about that one? So, it's official that God didn't hear the prayers of any women, including black women, in Sacrament meeting, since they were banned from even praying at all. Wow, what a nice, loving Mormon God!!
To be honest, I had forgotten that ALL WOMEN were forbidden to pray in Sacrament meeting...how DISGRACEFUL!! You can almost just stop at the racism and sexism, by God's supposed "anointed Prophets, Seers and Revelators" and have enough ammunition to know that it's all nothing but a crock of shit and a complete fraud, run by nothing by bigoted, racist men. They should just rename the Mormon church "Corporation Racist/Sexist/homophobic Cult!!"
So, let's go into detail, what black people weren't able to do, in the Mormon church, before the 1978 so called "Priesthood revelation" and see if God was listening to their prayers or not:
1. Black men, women and children were banned from all the temples. Black men didn't have the Priesthood, Black women were banned just because of their skin color and black children couldn't do baptisms for the dead, because of their skin color and the fact that they were CURSED and the seed of Cain.
2. This temple banning of all blacks, also meant that black couples could not be sealed together in the temple, children couldn't be sealed to their parents and thus they couldn't be an "Eternal Family", which is the main marketing slogan of Mormonism. Why any blacks joined the Mormon church before 1978, I'll never know, but there certainly weren't very many.
3. Due to not having the Priesthood, black men(or boys), could not bless or pass the sacrament, they couldn't bless their children or wives when they were sick or needed comfort. Instead, they had to call on the white men of the church, to come to their house and do it, since they weren't worthy and were CURSED as the seed of Cain. They also couldn't bless their houses, or dedicate a grave at a funeral, serve missions(which was really a blessing), etc, etc.
4-Due to the Priesthood ban, black men couldn't ever have any type of leadership role in the Mormon church at all and they could only sit silently by and watch the white men run the church. When you look at todays Mormon Hierarchy, including the First Presidency, Apostles, Presiding Bishopric and Seventies, nothing has changed one iota, as there isn't one black man in any of those positions and there has been only one black Seventy since 1978, Helvécio Martins.
So, I would say that the racist, Mormon God wasn't listening to or answering the prayers of black folks in the Mormon church, for at least 148 years, since they couldn't have the Priesthood, go to the temple or even have the very basic "Mormon Eternal Family." I mean let's face it, they were just numbers in the church, weren't cared about at all and couldn't do jack shit at any level, even in their own home. Why would anyone subject themselves to this bigotry and racism?!! An even better question is how can anyone today, that is currently active in the Mormon church, even begin to excuse, justify and rationalize this bigoted and racist behavior and teachings, as if they are no big deal and don't matter.
By the way, I'm still waiting patiently(almost 2 years now) for a doctrinal explanation, of why it was, that black women were also banned from the temple. I've mentioned this so many times and not one person, not even the Mormon apologists that heckle my blogs and videos, and that send me nasty, threatening Emails, have dared to respond. You know why? They know that it was for one reason and one reason only....they were banned because they had black skin, and were cursed as the seed of Cain, which is the same reason black men couldn't have the Priesthood. If that isn't blatant racism, I don't know what is. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!
So, back to the title of this post: "Will The Racist Mormon History, Doctrines And Teachings, By Past Prophets And Apostles, Be Big Trouble For Mitt Romney And The Mormon Hierarchy?!!"
After everything I just mentioned above, I would say absolutely yes and I want everyone reading this to forward this post to someone else or multiple people and let the world know, one person at a time, about the racist Mormon teachings and doctrines that still stand today as truth, to the Mormon Hierarchy. Like I often say, the Mormon Hierarchy can try to run and cover-up and lie, but they can't hide and I will continue to expose their dirty secrets and sins every chance I get, for all the world to see.
If the current Mormon Hierarchy didn't still believe their past racist teachings, they would repudiate them and offer an "official apology" to the world and then stop printing and selling them, which they will never, EVER do. I guess better to be an inspired, RACIST Prophet or Apostle, of a RACIST Mormon God, than to apologize to the world and have to admit to the litany of mistakes, doctrines of bigotry and hate and false teachings that have been made and taught by the "we can't lead you astray or God will remove us Hierarchy", right?
Basically, an apology would be an admission of guilt, that the church and its members were severely misguided, led astray and that the Mormon church isn't led by inspiration, or Prophets or Apostles and therefore isn't the "one and only true church" that they claim it is, which would bring it to its knees.
So, the bottom line folks, is that they will never apologize for their racist past and teachings(even if they didn't truly believe them) because they can't and too much money and too many cult members, current and future, are riding on not apologizing. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!
They are playing the odds very stupidly, that they can hide it all in the closet and keep it hidden there; but thanks to Mitt Romney and all of the ex-Mormons blogging, it is now taking center stage and out of the closet for all the world to finally see.
In the end, it will be their utter arrogance and pride, and refusal to apologize or repent(their refusal to follow the very same repentance process they hold members to) of their past sins, that will bring the church and the Mormon Hierarchy to it's very knees.
So, thanks Mitt Romney, for running for President, so that the world can finally learn the real "Mormon Truth" and see the long hidden skeletons of Mormonism as they tumble and fall out of the closet, in a big, gigantic pile. The next couple of years will be amongst the most embarrassing in Mormon history, as people turn to the Internet in mass, all around the US and world, to learn the facts about Mormonism.
They will then find out the horrific truth, from people like myself, all of you reading this that leave your comments and all of the ex-Mormon bloggers out there, who after spending our whole life in the Mormon church, discovered it was a cult and uncovered the lies, fraud and deceit.
Mormon missionary work and conversions will absolutely tank worse than they already have in the US and this will probably happen all around the world. The funniest thing is, Mitt won't even get the Republican nomination and it will have all be for naught!! So, all you Mormons out there, get ready for the nightmare scenario, as your little "1/5th of 1% of the worlds population" cult, will finally be exposed for what it truly is. You can either learn the truth now or later, but you will know the truth soon.
The question is; what will you do with that truth once you learn it? Will you become a disgusting, loathsome Mormon apologist, with no moral values, like Daniel C. Peterson and then begin to defend, excuse and justify all the Mormon Hierarchy's teachings of hate, racism, sexism, etc, or will you have the inner strength, to admit that these things are wrong and couldn't have possibly come from men of God and to walk away from the Mormon cult?
Everyone has decisions to make in life and this will be your decision to make and us ex-Mormons know it isn't an easy one, to decide to walk away from Mormonism, after a lifetime of dedication and indoctrination, to what we once thought was "the one and only true church on earth."
Just know that we'll always be here for you in "Mormon Truth" and that you'll always have a place to come and we wish you the best of luck in your "journey to the real truth."
Samuel the Utahnite
49 comments:
It is a disgrace that the LDS cult has not repudiated its stand on interracial marriage as well as its racist past.
Your post is excellent. I appreciate so much that you have taken such a firm stand against the hypocrisy of the LDS cult. You have helped me understand so much.
I feel that Misfit Marie has said it perfectly...I (and many others) appreciate the work you have done on your blog and podcasts.
Thanks a million,
Bonnie
Doctrinal explanation on black women entering the temple before '78:
By very definition all going to the temple and receiving endowments are ordained to one day become 'kings and priest' with the equivalent for women 'queens and priestesses’; any man entering the temple needs to be an elder first, before '78 and after. A race which was banned from priesthood before '78 would count for both men and women the same, because women are ordained in the temple to one day become ‘priestesses’ in the higher priesthood.
Notice that other races were not banned: Fijians, people from India or Pakistan who can also be very dark skinned or Australian aborigines who are very dark (this is spoken of in David O McKay’s latest biography) but please, this is not a justification or apology.
Notice that all of these teachings where not included in scripture, so they where teachings for people in their time, for the people of the 19th century or even the '50's. And as president Hinckley said: "don't know why". You are just speculating in giving it a financial explanation/motive. Social cohesion would sound more believable to TBM’s.
This could also be added to Joseph F Smith’s teaching that youth should not become lawyers but study mechanical things because most lawyers are vultures who live of the political system. May have being true in Utah back in 1908, but it’s not very practical today. (That teaching is in Gospel Doctrine, which you obviously have)
Also I’m a TBM who would hate to see Romney win even the nomination. I know most in Utah want him to win. But I don’t. I’m not scared of these teachings becoming public but the next president will probably have to invade Iran or go to war with China or something and I would hate to see a Mormon president have to do that because of what everyone will then say about us, like our teachings about war in the book of mormon when God is a God of love and peace, and so on.
Just some good news , not related to the blacks issue though.There is a church member who was having real difficulty in church , he felt inadequate, useless, a sinner of the worst kind , constantly felt belittled by superior Priesthood holders , had no testimony , couldn't afford to Tithe really it brought him hardship. He knew something wasn't quite right. He'd heard about the head in a hat , Danites , Polygamy , blood atonement ,blacks priesthood issue etc etc .........
5 days ago I lent him the Grant Palmer book 'An Insiders View Of Mormonism ' Today I went to check up on him . I was worried he might feel depressed and guess what .......... The most happiest I have ever seen him , he felt liberated !!! He even finally had a small testimony of Jesus Christ and God but no Joseph Smith and he felt great .
He didn't have to fear Joseph Smith any more. In comparison he thought of himself as a Saint !
I felt the spirit :)
Elder Joseph
When we talk of the freedom and liberation that comes when we leave the church, TBM's take that as us being happy that we can now do whatever we want. They don't realize that it really is freedom!
Good work, Elder Joseph. Truth is freedom!!!
Good blog Samuel; I can tell you have put a lot of hours into that one. Gordon B. Hinckley was the first to really go into the media spotlight and now everyone is curious about it. It turns out, just as you stated, that all this attention is bad for the church as their racism, polygamy, etc, etc, is being exposed to the world.
All the TBM's I was debating/talking to have suddenly disappeared. Anybody there?
Misfit Marie,
There will come a point, someday, when the church will be forced to acknowledge certain issues. But you see, they are between a rock and a hard place.
As true prophets, they have always claimed that they can never be wrong. So to admit that they were wrong on ANYTHING discredits EVERYTHING they have ever said. This is why they have never apologized for their racism; because it would discredit an "inspired" doctrine. Basically it would make their god look like a racist fool.
I too, have preferred to keep my apostasy as quiet as possible. But obviously, when one stops going to church it isn't long before word spreads. At least most people now just consider me 'inactive' rather than 'apostate'.
I have the occasional ward member tell me that they miss me at church (I was an assistant clerk to the Bishopric, which basically means I did anything they needed me to). When I first stopped going, my heart would race every time the doorbell would ring. I was afraid it would be the bishop coming to chastise me. I have always had a hard time with confrontations and it would have been very difficult to tell the bishop, to his face, that I no longer believe in the church and no longer recognize his authority over me. Fortunately for me, my bishop really was a very nice man who immediately respected my decision to become inactive.
I must admit, that my experience has been easier than almost any I have read about. No friends or family have shunned me and no one has threatened to blood atone me or anything like that. My TBM step father takes the opportunity once in a while to make a hint or two.
So do what you need to do but don't let them bully you around with their priesthood authority.
Samuel, when is your next skypecast? You mentioned that it was on every Thursday at 6:00 but I never saw any more information on how to join or anything like that. Can you be very specific as to what, how, where, etc? Basically a skypecast for dummies?
Yes, anon, because anyone who runs a blog is obligated to leave vitriol up for everybody to enjoy.
Samuel, I didn't know about the ban on women praying in sacrament meeting. Thanks for telling us that - just one more mark against a sexist, rascist, anti-human organization that's 20 years behind the rest of the civilized world when it comes to basic allowances of human rights. -_-
Man, you guys all have way to much time on your hands. Can't just leave the church and move on? Have to pour all of your energies into trying to "prove" that it is a fraud? Don't you know that you're fulfilling prophecy even in doing that? The ten minutes I've wasted looking at your blog was ten minutes too many.
Well, of course we have time on our hands. We could be reading the Book of Moron-er I mean Mormon, or we could be attending a meeting or studying for a Sunday school lesson. But I could say the same thing about you.
I don't think you are in any place to be asking us such things anyway. My suggestion to you? Stop waisting YOUR time then, and go away. You should be preparing for church tomorrow, you silly person.
Misfit Marie
Bitching to fight apostates and traitors like Samuel, who had it all and has turned against it. Unfortunately you may be following in his footsteps but it's not too late to change that if you want to.
If they weren't traitors they'd just walk away from the church and maybe join some other church instead of doing this blog.
And I won't stop posting whilst it affects people like you who keep answering. I really enjoy a fight! I've being training, preparing and fighting for nearly 3 decades now but unfortunately we can't fight anything in church on Sundays since its contention BS -so I have to come here to do it!
Do any of us go into your sacred sacrament meeting and stir up a fight? Do we force anyone to stop believing?
Are we supposed to be offended by the term "traitor" that you keep referring to us as? Call us whatever you want, it doesn't matter. We have the right, under guarantee from the Constitution, to peacefully gather to petition and that is exactly what we are doing.
Just go away. You are the one who is full of the spirit of contention. You are the one who is being a traitor. Because you are fighting against the Constitution which allows us religious freedom, without persecution. You are fighting to take away our pursuit of happiness. So no matter how much you hate what we say and do, you have no right to try to take it away from us.
He defends the churches racism, by calling us traitors. He represents Jesus Christ by trying to take away our rights. He defends the "spirit" by bringing contention. Dude, do you honestly believe in the church? Because you are a hypocrite in every sense of the word.
Now everyone ignore this man and do not make any further comments to him.
Hi Misfit Marie ,
Thanks for being the first person to post a comment on myblog site ! it was a nice surprise . I've been inspired by Samuel to create one and maybe one day it will be popular and I'll have the LDS Hierarchy chasing me also. Thanks for the comment about liberating a friend ( and to Ray also for the same )with the Grant Palmer book , I was amazed myself .He looked Born Again , the happiest I have ever seen him in the time I've known him .I felt great about myself . I said that if he decided to stay I'd be happy and respecting of that now he knows the real truth , but he's getting OUT ! Amen .
He just said " Thanks ******** I'm finally free , that Joseph Smith was just a Charlatan and the whole things a farce , its confirmed what I already knew and felt, you are a good honest man " and thats the key folks .. Honesty , he's realised just how much the church has hidden from him and don't want him to know and will still hide from him . If we all knew its History and the full version of events at the start then NO-ONE would join . Its a slow conditioning process and nothing else .
There are some creeps in the Mormon Church and I've finally had a suspicion of mine confirmed and I've felt alot of pressure recently to conform in church and toe the line !!
It seems that Religion and assumed Power and Authority in the name of God breeds some right Hippocrites .These scare me ,the way some men talk about self righteousness and worthiness , they usually are the worst abusers and bullies. I feel sorry for some in this church , with little or no escape . The Hand of Authority and Intimidation to conform is so evident throughout . I've often heard this church makes bad men good and good men better , but I can't helping seeing that it creates some control freaks and criminal opportunists seeing how vulnerable some members are.
Its a depressing church. I can't see any Joy really , just people with incomplete Celestial Families , Little faith in ever reaching Celestial Kingdom despite doing everything . The same low home teaching figures month after month and subsequent reminders,the pressure to attend the temple,find investigators and all the rest of it ......... Its almost comical if it wasn't for the fact that its depressing .
Elder Joseph
It must be the same everywhere. All they ever talked about in my elders quorum was hometeaching, hometeaching, hometeaching. Week after week. I got so tired of the constant pressure and guilt trips that I finally stopped going. I'll never forget, one day in general priesthood before we split into the different quorums, the bishop asked everyone in the room to stand up. He then instructed everyone with a temple recommend to sit down. So there was everyone without a TR on public display for everyone to see. Talk about manipulation! I was absolutely stunned that he would do that. Can you imagine being publically embarrased and chastized for not having a TR?
I'm surprised that they didn't have everyone publically report their home teaching numbers. If you did your HT, then you get glory and praise from everyone. If you didn't do it, then you get publically embarrased again and again.
The social expectations were piled up on me until I could barely move. There was HT, tithing, temple attendance, callings, pointless meetings. Seriously, when I stopped going to church it was as if the world was literally taken off my shoulders. Damn, I could finally breathe again! And everyone is shocked and surprised that I suddenly went inactive! I bet they all feel supressed just like me but are just to afraid to quit. The cult has a chain around their necks. Ironically, you are free to remove the chain any time you want. But the cult has made them all so afraid of life outside the group, that they prefer to be continually choked by the chain. Screw that! That shit is for the mindless peons who run around doing anything their leaders tell them. For those of us who figured out how to think for ourselves, we no longer have to be slaves to that system.
Congratulations everyone! Especially you, Elder Joseph, for freeing yourself before you ever got snaired. For those of us who were born into captivity, it is scary to take that first step into the forbidden area. Some people are so afraid of losing the 'spirit' that they literally can't imagine life without it.
Have any of you ever played the game where someone places a dozen eggs on the floor? The person playing gets to practice walking through the egg field. Then, they are taken out of the room and a blindfold is put on them. They then have to walk through the egg field being guided either by memory or by someone directing their steps.
The blindfolded person does not realize that while they were taken out of the room, someone else picked up all the eggs. Obviously, there is no danger of them stepping on any eggs because none of them are there anymore.
The church puts a similar illusion on its members. It creates a false threat (eggs vs. the world) and then leads them blindly through it. Trouble is, they are so busy trying to avoid the eggs that aren't even there, that they go through life with a blindfold on focusing on nothing else and being sorely afraid of stepping on an egg.
If the person would remove the blindfold before they start the journey, it would be an easy one! But for some reason, everyone wants to keep the blindfold on! All of us here took the blindfold off and we are all amazed at how clear everything is!!!
Ray ,
Your experience of church is absolutely spot on !! lol Of course it would be , but for me to hear and relate to it is so funny !!
I've seen this constant pressure from the beginning and looked round at how miserable everyone is while at the same time they are wanting to show the world how happy they are !! hahahahahah what a farce . Its almost a comedy if it wasn't so bad for those held captive . All I've ever heard in Elders Qurom is the same constant condemnation , home teach figures bad , temple attendance slack , one meeting after another , singles fireside here , singles fireside there, enrichment meeting , this and that meeting , social event etc etc. Its absolutely depressing . There are never any new investigators , They keep going on about finding investigators for the missionaries , Brothers are you doing everything you can ? lol There's only me investigating( for the past 18 months ) and they are well stressed that I won't baptise !! hahahahah
Each time I get a new missionary assigned he is like a vulture looking to feed of my blood for a baptism .Its ridiculous , they know nothing , they expect to covert me by their pathetic acting and shedding a tear on their testimony . Its disgraceful and I feel sorry for those people who fall for it . Its a Cult and nothing else . I'm clear in my mind .
The bishop is arrogant and full of S**T basically . he told me Joseph Smith used Urim and Thumin seer stones to translate .He said they were glass style stones and he put them over the plates and saw the translation ???? I felt like correcting him about The head in the hat .. the BIG BIG Idiot !! I'm shocked !!
I've concluded its more bad than good and now I'm clear in my direction on how i will try to help more come out as long as I can stay , without my cover being blown . I really have seen the sinister side to it . Those brought up in it don't know what freedom of thought is like , its absolutely ridiculous .
Ray have you had your name removed ? They like to bragg about 12 million members even though only 4 or 5m attend and up to 3m are totally lost anyway .
Its so tragic how this Church has Hijacked the good name of Jesus Christ and implanted imposters as go between special witnesses of Christ and any hope of an afterlife is in there hands !! Absolutely tragic . I can see why ex mormons get angry . I feel duped as an investigator .
"the Standard of Truth has been erected; no Lying prophet or apostle's hand can stop the real Truth from progressing ;Mormon General Authorities's may rage, The Seventies may combine, bishops may assemble, Stake Presidents may defame, but the real truth will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every rational Mormon Prisoner , visited every stake, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of Honesty and Integrity shall be accomplished, and Self Esteem and confidence in self is restored .”
I haven't been shown the eggs thing yet , I'll know how to react though when they do .. lol , but I have noticed that many stories I'm told to illustrate points as if they had thought of them themselves on the spot are actually from church publications !
hold to the real truth !
Elder Joseph
i am seriously shocked at how much you all sound just like the mormon cult SHEEP - just brainwashed the other way. do you know yourselves how brainwashed YOU are??? i've never seen a more weakminded bunch of sheep than tbms or Xtbms. tbms spout off about how the church is true and they all quote the same stories over and over from all the same people, same sources. Xtbms spout off about how UNtrue the church is and guess what? Xtbms all quote the same stories over and over from all the same people, same sources. you're all a bunch of mindless SHEEP!
now about mormon racism? why does everyone and their dog whine about racism? it's so yesterday's news! mormons aren't racist now, so why does anyone care?
Elder Joseph,
I have not as of yet had my name removed. That will happen when I am ready. I don't know how common the egg thing is. I only saw it once. But now you know!
Mr. Anon, most likely Jose again,
Your opinion that we are sheep is your opinion. If it isn't clear to you by now, we are kind of used to being called all sorts of names. If we are sheep, why do you even bother to make a comment?
I'm am getting so damn tired of jerks like you who come parading in here like you're the ultimate authority on what we all should say and feel.
I'd like to bear my testimony. I know the church isn't true. I love my mom and dad. I hope I can get my family out. In the name of cheese and rice, amen.
Was that mindless enough for you?
You are pathetic and you are a heartless piece of human shit. Have you no mercy on the person who is recovering from a serious illness? Or do you have to kick them when they are down?
Why do we care about racism? Because they have never apologized for it and that means that even though they claim they no longer are racist, they actually are. After all, a true prophet of god said that blacks were meant to serve whites FOREVER. So if the church is true, that means god still hates blacks. That's why we care, so get a clue! Why do you defend something like that? I bet if you're black, it is a very important issue!
I am terribly insulted at your arrogance calling us a bunch of mindless sheep. You are the sheep, spouting off the same bull shit that we hear from every TBM who sticks their nose in here. And you don't even have enough courage to put a name on your statement.
I am starting to agree with Samuel more every day: that TBM's are the most cruel, insensitive, heartless jerks that religion can possibly produce.
Demon of Kolob said...
I have just a couple of comments to add to your post. Mormon racism is not just against blacks. The scandal against Seventy George P Lee convenient come to light after Lee publicly
criticized Mormon treatment of Laminaties (Native Americans). I wonder if the Morg leadership knew about the scandal all a long and just brought to light after Lee's criticism.
Mormon still segregate in Utah , Hispanics and pacific islanders are send to separate wards. I had a Hispanic TBM neighbor with a PhD who spoke perfect English he was still send to the Spanish ward.
I've realised just how sinister the LDS church really is . A church member offered to help with certain issues of difficulty. I thought great some help finally . So we discussed the Less Valiants pre existence thing with them being born into a Black skin cursed body.He assured me that there was no such thing and no church leader ever taught anything like it ?? lol
I thought great . So I bring him my Journal of Discourses quotes and all the rest of them and ............ He didn't help, he just brushed it off as mans opinion and bore his sickly testimony and instead I end up in The Bishops Office with a gagging order slapped on me !
I was told not to show these things to anyone in church and if I find anything else to bring it to the Bishopric ???
I can see how all you exmormons have been trapped for all this time . I felt the pit of my stomach churn and I've never been a member .I can only imagine how really sick and ill you all became on realising the truth . Very Scary .
I'm glad that you've all survived and now are able to help others . I would like to help others too .
We have the greatest advantage on our side. We can be Honest and Tell The Truth with nothing to hide and nothing to fear ( except a few pyscho TBM's and I think I've met one ) What a marvelous work and a wonder the REAL TRUTH really is .
Damn Elder Joseph...
I was amazed by your latest comments. That's just all insane!! Does "your Bishop" realize that he has ZERO authority over you and can't order you to do anything and that you can say whatever you damn well please to anyone you want? I think it's hilarious that he thinks he can now control and manipulate you with fear, as if you are actually a Mormon cult member. He must be an idiot or delusional!!
This clown of a Bishop, must be a real control freak eh? So what is he going to do now...call the police and have a restraining order placed against you, if that's how it works over there? Does your church building say "visitors welcome", like they do all around the world. You are a visitor, aren't you?
I mean after all, his number one job is to protect his flock of cultists, from dangerous truth-tellers like you, that are even more dangerous than predators, according to the Bishop's handjob....I mean handbook. This is just unbelievable, it really is.
The next time you go meet with him, you should record it and I'll release it as a podcast, for all the world to hear. So, did he actually lay out what will happen to you if you ignore his "gag order?" I mean he isn't into blood atonement or anything, right?
We had members in Argentina, in one of my areas, going out at night and practicing animal sacrifices, cutting off chicken heads, spreading their blood in a circle, etc, so you never know. As you now know, Mormonism creates some freaky freaks, capable of anything to protect the Mormon cult and their God.
Anyway, I'm sorry that you've had to go through this, but at the same time, I'm glad that you can now better understand personally, even a little bit, what us ex-Mormons went through upon discovery. That little sick feeling in your stomach, was like the planet Jupiter in our stomach.
To wake up one day and realize that everything you've always believed in(with all your heart to be the "one and only truth", and the definition of who you were and your way of life) was nothing but half-truths, fraud and flat-out lies; is pain beyond description.
Anyway, thanks Elder Joseph for all that you do, as you are a great man to be helping out the way you are and we really appreciate all of your hard work and efforts. Just know that we're behind you 100%!!
Please keep us posted on the latest happenings with the Bishop, ward and members and stay safe. Remember that risking the safety of yourself or family, to expose the cult, isn't worth it.
Take care,
Samuel
Your post spoke to me loud and clear! It's what i have been trying to put into words for the last 4 months! I hope you don't mind, but I took you at your word and copied most of this post and put it over on my blog site, (with proper credit to you, of course, and a backlink so people can check you out for themselves).
I struggle with words most of the time and can't seem to come off very intellectual or reasonable when I try to put thoughts together, so I actively search for topics and then when I come across one that just hits it on the head (like most of your posts) I copy them and transfer them to my blog site (always backlinking and crediting orginal authors) then I put a little piece of opinion at the bottom. I hope it is ok to continue to glean info from your most excellent site!
I am trying to bring my sister out of the Morg, and maybe my mom too. They read my blog occasionally, no doubt to try and fish for things they can take out of context, or look for me to mention them specifically, but so far, I hardly receive any comments, emails or 'defenders of the faith'...maybe that will change now that I've commented here. :>)
Anyway, I just wanted to tell you that I support you, I defend your right to publish what you want, I think you are right on the money when it comes to exposing the fraud of the church, and if you weren't doing such a damn good job, they wouldn't be so afraid of your far reaching influence on the Internet! You and hundreds like you are going to help bring thousands out of this cult, and it is a good and decent calling, not a waste of time to try and show these folks where they have been tricked and lied to and conned out of hard earned money and time spent with loved ones, neither of which they will EVER get back.
That's what makes it worthwhile, squeezing the Mormon church until they finally come clean and admit to their deceit and scare tactics they use to control the masses.
All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men (and women) to do nothing...
Samuel ,
The Bishop ? lol I can see they are impatient with me . They don't really like Investigators or Visitors but only people who will baptise . I was told that no one will rush you into anything and you are free to ask questions. But what kind of Questions do they like ? How soon can I join ? Can I tithe at once ? Will you give me a calling ? lol
They obviously don't like my questions . Too probing , too uncomfortable . I thought that I'd be able to ask things as I attended church but soon realised that all the lessons are superficial and for the purpose of Indoctrination and nothing else .I try lightly questioning and already I'm reminded that contention is of the devil ! For goodness sake .
They are struggling getting new converts and the ones they have are rebelling a bit ( they are linking it to me ?)lol. But I just tell the truth . When asked why I don't baptise then I will mention that I don't understand the blacks/priesthood ban era and also polygamy. Most missionaries don't know Joseph Smith was a polygamist , I love telling the Sister Missionaries . Then they try the widows thing which I counteract at once and then they go quiet . In fact its so easy for a missionary to go quiet .They know absolutely nothing about anything .They pretend to know but haven't a clue .I only had one good apologist type and he was stumped a few times with me .I like the bit when he said he puts some things on the shelf !! Hoping for an answer later on .I have to do all this questioning in sincerity so alot of the time I have to toe the line and listen to the basics Faith Repentance Baptism and Gift of The Holy ghost blah blah blah
I would really like to help others out of this church . I have helped one so far ( he did his own research really but has very limited access to information - I just speeded up the process for him )and managed to open the eyes and minds of about three more . They speak of the church as just another church and nothing more and even rebuke Joseph Smith and his polygamy lol.They don't really know the real beliefs of Mormonism , but they trust me as I help them out .I'm more approachable for them than the die hard Mormons.They know why I haven't joined !!
I've noticed a pattern in the last few baptisms ,they are all vulnerable by the nature of their circumstance ... lonely and no friends when the missionaries knocked . And they were pressured into baptism of course.
If i had known I'd end up Bishops Office I would have tried recording it . I was shocked at how no one keeps anything personal I ask in church. I can just imagine them meeting together discussing me.
Attending regularly is starting to annoy me , because I can see through it all .I'll keep going for as long as possible , I do have some good friends their , but I wonder what sort of friends they are really , I'm suspicious that there only motive is to get me in !!
I just wondered if you'd like me to post your videos or some of them back on You Tube on one of my accounts.
I wish I had more time to do more myself . But I'm in this for the longer term I reckon .I have a personal testimony that Mormonism is a terrible fraud from the beginning and when I look at it from a clear perspective and with the full facts , its so obvious its a con that I wonder how on earth I even considered it or at some points thought yea it could be true ??? scary !
Elder Joseph
Elder Joseph -
That must have been scary. I agree with Samuel, you should record it next time... just be careful. It would be interesting to hear what he had to say. It scares me at the thought of him telling you not to show any of your material to any members. They should have nothin to worry about, right? They're members of "the one true church" ...
I wonder what it would be like, to have such a clear mind about it, if I've said that right. It makes me wonder how much more conviction I would have in these choices I am making... or how I can reach that myself. At least for me, everything is clouded by a lot of confusion, fear, pressure, guilt, ect. I'm told that goes away eventually, but I wonder what more I could see if all of those things weren't there.
Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your attitude and the comments you have made. You sound like a very intelligent person that cares a lot about people. I enjoyed this blog and your comments(and Samuel's too). I'm learning more and more every day.
I have yet to see "the dark side" of my bishop (I've just lived a sheltered life), but it would certainly be interesting to hear what he would have to say in such a case. If you find yourself in trouble again, bring a recorder. =D That would be swell... but Samuel is right. You and the safety of your family is more important, so be careful. My father has taken a lot of abuse from the church and doesn't even know it... I worry about it.
Will any of you be back on YouTube? From what I heard, Samuel was removed... lame! That's where I first discovered him. I remember when I first saw some of his stuff, my first impression was a really bad one: Oh no! Evil, evil man trying to tear down my precious church. That was my first, immediate reaction. How could someone do this to the church? No joke, but I was already having serious doubts (lots of suspicion and unanswered questions), so I kept watching/reading anyway. WOW! Look where I've ended up. But hey, I'm not going to complain.
Misfit marie
Misfit marie ,
Thanks for your comments . About having a clear mind about things . Is the church true or a fraud ? The best way is to look at both sides of it.The mormon church will tell you to only read their side of it ? Thats suspect already because they are LYING , simple as that and always have been lying from the start .There are good examples on the internet if you search 'Mormon Lying'. NO ONE would join if they knew the real truth at the beginning , so its like a confidence trick the way they teach.Once they get you to accept Joseph Smith and the Book Of Mormon then everything else must be true , even the absolute ridiculousness of things including Joseph Smith having sex with lots of teens for their salvation( if you ever find out that is ?? ) !! Its sheer stupidity .
I read all the church things , I have an Ensign Subscription and I'm just reading an article on sealings ? lol
I also read the true history by those who are prepared to reveal it and its not the apostles or prophet who will tell us .Its people like Grant Palmer with a Christlike conscience and others like him. You could also wonder why is the church lying today about its history , why are things kept hidden , why are we not told many things ?? For obvious reasons , the whole scam would collapse , except for a few pscho freaks looking forward to multiple wives in their Celestial Kingdoms .
Is it fair to baptise people on the strength of the Missionaries fake love bombing , and it is fake . Many don't give a damn afterwards , they are just vultures for baptisms. I know because I have tried emailing them after their missions , they don't bother now ! they were full of praise for me on the mission and afterwards ? ZILCH !! NOTHING !
They think they are working for Jesus Christ( thats what there head is hammered with )so they'll do anything for a baptism ! I have been pressured to get baptised from the very first month . I'm quite strong willed I can say no without being hostile . Its a high pressure church .Once your baptised you are made to feel inadequate , you soon realise that baptism mean nothing in this church , it has no saving power . ONLY The temple recommend MIGHT save you , that means paying tithes and accepting everything from the higher authorities as inspired of God . You might still not be good enough . Joseph Smith was obviousley good enough though according to them and maybe the other dangerous idiots after him like Brigham Young and Bruce Ass McConkie ! What absurdity ! after all their nonsense and utter rubbish spouted for over 100 years .
Our Stake Patriarch said If we follow the Prophet and he's wrong we will still blessed .I replied if we follow the prophet and he's wrong then we are the bigger fools !!!
Have faith in your Christ Like conscience , make your own decision , don't let the Mormons control your thoughts to oblivion ! lol I believe there are many unstable men in this church , psycho's thinking they are working exlusively for God .I've felt the insult and threat from one .... very sinister !
I was speaking to one ex missionary now ex mormon , he told me that he was teaching a girl who he persuaded to baptise but she lived in sin with her boyfriend .So the missionary persuaded her to marry him so they could get a baptism from her ! EVEN THOUGH THE MISSIONARY KNEW THAT HER BOYFRIEND WAS BEATING HER UP !!!!
He feels awful about it now , full of regrets .
Take care .
Elder Joseph
Ps keep the good things they teach , Honesty , Family Values etc and throw out the intimidation, Lies , bullying , and self righteous crap :))
Wow. I just don't even know where to go from here. I have been a member of the church all my life and I have never seen this evil, dark, and sinister side that you people are describing. Do only Utah mormons suffer from this, or is this dark sinister mormon church world wide? I mean really, Elder Joseph, you got sent to the Bishop and he told you not to talk about it anymore and to hide your Journal of Discourse quotes? Like they're some big secret??? Who believes this junk????
Elder Joseph,
I do see a lot of that, about baptisms, where I come from. Here, in this Mormon bubble, there's not many to baptize (lol), but back home I would see cases similar to that.
I had a friend in high school who was a wrestler. The missionaries would not leave him alone. It's my fault, because I was the one my friend came to with questions about the church, wanting to meet up with the missionaries... I set up an appointment, but I did not think the missionaries would act the way they would.
My friend (let's call him Lucas) and I made it clear that because of his family situation, the missionaries could not show up to any of his wreslting matches, at his school, out in public. They would meet secretly at the park as often as they saw fit. Well, to make a long story short. They not only disregarded the feelings of my friend, but they went into his home on his brithday and attempted to teach his entire family. I know this because I was there. They held nothing back, and Lucas' relationship with his family hasn't been the same. I was also forbidden by his parents to hang out with him, and so that was that.
My parents, especially my father (who is horribly emotionally abused by the church and doesn't even see it) is BIG on missionary work... and I see how it interferes with his relationship with other people. I used to grow up seeing him as such a strong spiritual figure in my life... impossibly perfect and wonderful and godLY. Now, I love my father with all my heart... but now those feelings have changed slightly. I pity him more now that I can see things that have been done to him and are being done to him in this church that he can't. He's OCD, and I feel like the church triples that struggle for him.
Anyway, I'll stop rambling on about my family... but I've seen a lot of crazy missionary stories. And I'm not mad at the missionaries really. They're doing what they feel is right by them. They can't see what I see... I can see more and more in the people around me, and I can't help but feel so alone and different... sticking out like a sore thumb. I wish I could see more in myself then I see in everyone else. I would like to get to know myself better. =D
Misfit Marie
Anonymous -
I felt the same way you did at one time. As soon as I started to learn, and my eyes were more open, I started to see a lot of it. It's very suttle(subtle??) most times, especially for me... I always seem to slip through the cracks unoticed, out of trouble (lol).
I started to see how a brick building can get in the way between you and God, the brick building we call CHURCH. I saw so much pride in the elders, so many mind games played with its members. I started to see ways in which my friends and loved ones (especially by father) were being manipulated/abused by it. They never noticed.
I would put down those that left the church. I was stereotypical, negative and false "view" of the outside world. I was oblivious and stupid and brainwashed; however, I have been blessed with a very busy and inquisitive mind. All it took was one unanswered question that began to rouse me from my sleep.
In all honesty I see it more in the elders than in the women. Probably because I think the elders are manipulated by pride and their leadership positions, and the women are more "trained" to ALLOW themselves to be manipulated in their submissive/follower/obedient ways. Neither is worse than the other, I just find one more noticable.
"...hide your Journal of Discourse quotes? Like they're some big secret??? Who believes this junk????"
Well, it does happen. I've always thought it's a problem that sinful, mortal men are called to lead and guide God's "church" (like the prophet). It's caused so many problems already. We've created our own image of God. False doctrines change and change again, "God" bends to society, tradition, etc. ... It's all there.
My bishop would tell me the same thing. My internet was monitored until I bought my own private connection (I would be in a lot of trouble if I were caught with it). Any outside information is discouraged, and if I'm caught with it, I could be removed from the school... especially sharing it with other people. I have no doubt that my bishop would tell me the same thing, only as a member I would face other consequences as well. For clean checks, people rummage through my shelves and such places earching for porn, R-rated movies, and "anti-Mormon" material. They work their way through my DVD collection, however, have cleverly hidden away Constantine, V for Vendetta, and Sleepy Hollow below the driver's seat of my car (hehehe).
I play a game called World of Warcraft. As soon as my Bishop found out (I went to a gaming social thing here), he called me in and asked me what kind of standards I am maintaining online as well as offline. He reminded me that idle time is bad, all things in moderation, etc. HE didn not flat-out tell me to stop playing, but he covered just about everything else. I found this entertaining, and it was hard not to laugh.
Last month I was sent to the Dean because apparently someone heard my roomie yell "SPERM!" out the front window at someone. As she brought this up quite seriously, I could not stop laughing. She started asking me questions about what kind of activities go on in my apartment, some very invasive questions. Yeah...
Anyway, all I can say is ... try to look around you with open eyes... Pay attention. Look past the sugar-coating. Analyze.
And if this is Jose, I just wasted the last however-many minutes typing this out. >_>
If I were to show up in my Bishop's office and hand him the Journal of Discourses, he would advise me to get rid of it and fill my head with all kinds of "reasons" for it, ultimately coming back to my faith in God and worthiness and all those different things that make you feel guilty and powerless.
The only difference is... I don't believe it anymore. =/
Misfit Marie
My honest heartfelt advice to any members questioning the Mormon faith is this:
1) Do they encourage you to learn the TRUTH?
2) What does your heart tell you?
First of all, anyone that has the TRUTH does not need to fear the truth. Those that harbor LIES, fear the truth more than anything - and will avoid it at all costs.
Anytime you are investigating the church, th bishop (or whomever else) is going to get upset and say you are viewing "anti-mormon propaganda" that will "chase away the spirit" and is wrong, lies, and going to fool you away from God's church.
I would suggest that any materials that COME FROM THE MORMON CHURCH DIRECTLY cannot be considered "anti-mormon".
So ... wanna learn about Mormon racism? Mormon polygamy (JS's 33 wives), JS's past, changing first visions, peepstones in the hat, etc? Go read THE JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, read the D&C, and the ORIGINAL BOOKS, go look up documents and historical records/pictures on the internet. How can you be viewing "anti-mormon propaganda" if it was SOLD RIGHT OUT OF DESERT BOOKSTORES? Think about it!
Also, I know the lies are painful at first, but take a deep breath and keep learning. Ask yourself: if they've lied to me about THIS my whole life, and THAT my whole life, what else have they covered up?
Nextly ... HOW DO YOU FEEL? Even when I loved the church with my whole heart, even when I attended and thought it was all GOD'S ONLY TRUTH and bought into it ... I still had bad feelings in my heart, guilt, confusion, anger, I didn't feel the "spirit" at church, the talks were bland, I felt pressured and judged and like I was always under surveillance. HOW DO YOU FEEL? Be honest with yourself.
------
MM and EJ, I'm happy that you two know the truth and I commend you on your strength and dealing with the truth, despite how hard it is. I sincerely hope that you will be able to help your family and friends in time. Best of luck to you both.
And Samuel, I agree that you shouldn't let YouTUBE get ya down, those videos were important and a lot of people saw them -- maybe you can help guide other ppl here through YT? Maybe you should re-load them ... if not, I'm going to start making some because the mormons on YOUTUBE NEED TO SEE THE TRUTH!
Great to read everyone's notes. Take care xxx
Samuel,
Have you checked out metacafe.com? In my opinion they are much, much better than YouTube. The videos load much faster and they don't stop in the middle. And if you have a popular video, you can actually get paid by the number of views you get. So at least check it out.
guys
I think you have it much harder in the US and particulary in Utah once you leave due to the embracing nature the church in socioeconomic affairs. It strikes me that you simply cant avoid it. Here in the UK no one bothers you post your departure and living like the rest of the planet means you blend in easily as there are so few mormons to start with. And, it really isnt growing anything like they would have you believe. The internet will see to that which is why it amazes me the church cant come clean and admit to a shakey origin and move on with the better parts of of what is supposed to be a christ centered religion. Any investegator with half a clue is going to goggle "mormon" and they are going to come across your site samuel beore they do anything official. Perhaps old men and technology dont mix!
Keep up the good work,
John in London
Hey, I agree with John in London, except I think it's mostly in Utah (probably Arizona and Idaho too) that all the brainwashing and cult-like behavior exists, cause I've lived all over the US and overseas as well, and it's just not like that in other places. I am LDS, always have been, and like anonymous above, I've never seen this sinister side of mormonism that you guys talk so much about. I was actually encouraged by 1. my Bishop, and 2. my mission president to investigate all sides of the mormon church when I was presented with anti-mormon issues. I was inactive in college, and yes, the missionaries came by to see me, but only a few times and never more than 10-15 minutes each time. I think maybe another member called once or twice to offer me a ride, but nobody else bothered me about it.
Misfit Marie, I think if you go looking for subtle brainwashing conspiracies, you'll find that life is filled with them. Magazines, commercials, religion, politics, anti mormon sites... Think about it. Magazines tell women that if they're not a size 0, they're fat and gross. Commercials tell everyone that coffee and jimmydean sausage are the only possible way to wake up in the mornings. Sitcoms tell you that men are either inheritantly stupid and are completely incapable of successfully running a household alone, or simply sperm donors. If you are NOT mormon, Mormons tell you that you'll never be with your family again after you die, and that you won't find eternal happiness, and all that. If you ARE a mormon, you get told by antis and ex-mormons that mormonism is a cult and is all a lie and you're brainwashed and stupid for believing it. If your mind is weak, if you don't have a lot of strength of character, then of course you're going to be miserable in whatever you do (mormon or ex-mormon) because you have people on both sides telling you all sorts of things and you have no idea what is really true.
Anyway, on another board, Ray made a comment that he'd go back to the LDS church if Jesus Christ himself came and told him too. If Christ came to any of you guys, and told you that the mormon church was true, would any of you guys believe it then??? Before you answer that, be honest with yourselves. Wouldn't you be more likely to dismiss it as someone is punking you, or a figment of an overactive brain, or maybe someone slipped something in your drink when you weren't looking, or mayby you were dreaming . . . or any other excuse you could come up with because you are determined to believe that the church is NOT true?
Last, as I am LDS, I am sorry to all of you for the insulting and moronic comments that other mormons (jose) leave here. I hope I haven't come across as insulting, because I haven't meant to at all. None of my best friends are members of the church and we have open and honest discussions about the religion all the time. I enjoy it.
- M.A.
I guess all I have to say to that last comment is that I am not looking for conspiracies. I am looking for the truth.
I know they're everywhere, but that does not justify them being ANYWHERE. There are many ways in which I feel this world is truly F'd up.
And you're right, it makes it very difficult to see what is true and what isn't... which is what I am trying to work my way through right now.
One thing I do know is that I do not believe the church I have been born and raised into for the past nineteen years is true. In fact, I feel like I am much better off not a part of it for many reasons.
I am a very tolerant person. I try to be nice to everyone, and I respect the beliefs of others. The war I am waging at this time in my life is not against anyone in particular other than my own self... Of course, I feel that the church is a big part of that, but it will eventually come down to me and the choices I make to help myeslf and remove myself from the situation.
Another problem is, when I think about it. I feel very lost, very confused, manipulated, afraid, torn, angry, guilty... When I think about who I am, all I can think of are 1. The CHURCH and 2. My Family. And seeing as how I nolonger believe in #1 and in nolonger believing in #1 I will lose #2...
I do believe in God, wherever and whoever he is. And I am grateful, and I love him. I would do anything for him. Prayer discourages me, especially lately.
I am not looking for conspiracies, I am looking for the truth. But sometimes that means sifting through those conspiracies, information, whatever to get to it.
I'm not very good with words, so I can never seem to express myself very well with them, but I hope this is understandable. Lol.
Misfit Marie
Hey MisfitMarie, you need to be honest with your family. I know it's scary, and from what you have said about your family, there's most likely going to be a huge fallout, they'll do everything they can to change your mind, tell you how you won't be an eternal family, etc. But they're your family and they love you. They won't be mad forever, and in the meantime, you're living a lie and I can't imagine it's been easy for you. Get it over with. My sister-in-law was completely disowned by her family for joining the mormon church (not exactly the same, but very similar - I mean they were all convinced that she was going straight to hell for it!). They would not speak to her for almost a year, I think. Anyway, they eventually came around and started talking to her again once they saw that she wasn't going to just drop out - or be married off to some evil polygamist mormon bishop, or sacrificed to the evil mormon god in the evil mormon temple.... Point is, your family loves you. They'll be disappointed, but eventually they'll come around. AND, if the church really IS a lie, and really IS making them all miserable, then maybe they'll see how happy dropping out has made you, and maybe they'll join you, and in the end you'll have saved them from the "evil mormon cult." Either way, you should tell them, so you can get the fallout overwith and live your life with a clear conscience again.
Elder Joseph, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but WHY are you investigating the church if you don't plan on getting baptised? You're stringing the Elders along and wasting their time. Why not just drop it all together and let them move on to people who actually DO want to join the church? I don't mean to sound mean, but it does seem kind of dishonest to keep going and "investigating" if you're really just looking for reasons not to join, or to keep others from joining. I served a mission, I know what it was like having an investigator who kept coming, kept asking questions, kept acting interested, kept avoiding the subject of baptism.... it was frustrating, to say the least. And having someone constantly coming around just to stir up conflict and trouble was even more frustrating. Nobody makes a committment like converting to mormonism these days without first googling it on the internet and doing some research, so you're most likely not sharing anything new with anyone. If people want to join the church and they're happy with it, why not let them be? And hey, if I'm wrong, I sincerely apologize - this is just based on the impression I've gotten from your comments so far.
Anyway, those were just my thoughts as I read your posts this evening. I'm sorry your experiences with the church have been negative. Like I said, I've never witnessed any of this, and my only answer is, people aren't perfect. Again, if anything I said was mean or insulting, I really didn't mean it to be. I currently have a three year old shouting "twinkle twinkle little star" in my ear (she's been going on for the past twenty minutes) and it's kind of distracting!!!
-M.A.
M.A , The reason I attend is because I’m Investigating and yes I’m sure it’s a con now so I will be making an exit soon . But you have to remember after a year and a half , I have made lots of friends , they expect to see me and many rely on me for rides to church and home again and help with their computers. I can’t just suddenly quit , its too selfish and I’m a good person . Yes there are good people who are not Mormons !
I can see that that’s all you are all bothered about is a baptism at any cost . Anyone ( investigating ) that does a google on Mormonism doesn’t end up coming to church , its as simple as that . All the recent converts had NO internet access and they have been duped by the Lies and Spin of the missionaries . I’ve helped one with his journey out of Mormonism and he is so grateful to me , he feels duped and so foolish to fall for it . He is now the happiest I have ever seen him . Your church depressed him and robbed his money , he was struggling with tithes and had to much respect and dignity to go begging to the bishop .He got fed up with being intimidated by all the righteous living talk . I assured him that if the Angel of Death past over our Elders Qurom meeting then he’d find that only he would probably be left standing and probably find all the temple recommend guys swept away . There’s a myth created in church about how goody you think you all are and its not true , no different from any other organisation .
He has thanked me no end so don’t give me that nonsense that people want to join , they don’t , they get conned into it . I know of others who are now uneasy after what I’ve told them . The truth is you can only keep members in by never telling them the truth and hiding information from them and this is why 100,000 are leaving annually.
If you like the church stay ………. But don’t hide things from others who might not want to stay if they knew the real truth . That’s wrong and deceitful .
Elder Joseph
Ps I have been speaking to an ex missionary , he tells me how they are like Vultures , looking for a victim to ensnare . He has big regrets now he’s seen through it all !
Marie, that is some excellent advice from M.A. Yes, it is true, you run the risk of being shunned, kicked out of school, and going through some very hard times. So you will have to make the decision... am I willing to continue to be miserable living a lie OR do I want my own personal freedom more than anything in the world?
***********************************
Yesterday I was approached by some very sincere and friendly sister missionaries at school. They asked if I have ever heard of the church (in Utah, who hasn't?). The conversation wasn't very long, but when I revealed that I was inactive, they challenged me to pray to get my testimony back. One sister admitted that she had seen some "convincing" anti material but she kept her testimony by praying to receive that good feeling. I didn't reveal to her that I am totally apostate but I did make several hints that I didn't believe any more and that the reasons were complicated. She then gave me a little pamphlet with the typical Mormon hype and extended a challenge to me to pray about it. I accepted her challenge to pray and as I walked away, I said a little prayer. What answer did I get? Nothing so far...
To John in London:
The reason the mormon church "cant come clean and admit to a shakey origin and move on with the better parts of of what is supposed to be a christ centered religion", is because admitting to any kind of fault or failure in the past or present would fly directly against their core premise - that everything about them is true and correct. Life is not black and white, but the church would want people to think it is, and blanket statements like "the church is true" by definition can have no grey area. It's clear to people from the outside looking into mormonism that the church's origins are very grey indeed, and in places downright black. But that simple truth is counter to what the church wants to claim about itself in order to maintain its illusion of superiority and legitimacy, so of course church leaders can't admit to its shaky origin. Their doctrine of being "the one true church" has painted them into a corner, and all they can do when surrounded by unsavory facts is to hope people don't find out, and try to convince the people who do that the church is true anyway.
=/
Hey Samuel, you might want to take your own advice here and, "...actually educate yourself and read some of [MY] posts before you sound even more like a... fool." A couple of comments ago, I mentioned that I was inactive in college, and in your previous blog, I commented about how my older brother is completely inactive, and was anti for several years, and two of my aunts and most of their kids are inactive, my Grandmother is borderline, my brother married a nonmember, and yet, all of our family relationships are stronger now than ever. So, yeah, I do know a little of what I'm talking about when I tell MisfitMarie to get it over with. It IS hard at first, but they do get over it eventually, and it is better than the misery of living a lie. I am sorry that you lost relationships from your experience, but it isn't like that for everyone.
And MisfitMarie, I'm sorry if I sounded callous, it certainly wasn't my intent. What I said to you was said based on my own experience, and was said out of concern for you. I know I don't know you, but I do know how hard it is to live a lie. It's miserable, and nobody should have to live like that.
Elder Joseph, I am so sorry if my comments offended you. I really didn't mean to. And please, of course you are a good person, mormon or not! Hey, most of my best friends are nonmembers!!! I have no delusions about mormons being perfect! As far as my comment on you wasting the missionaries' time, and your comment on how I'm only bothered about baptisms.... well, my only excuse is that a missionary only has 2 years (18 months for sisters) to devote to the work, and they love the gospel and want everyone to love the gospel, and THAT is why MOST of them push so hard to get people baptised... whether or not they're brainwashed doesn't change the fact that MOST of them sincerely believe that everyone is better off with the gospel in their lives (though I do agree that it is a numbers game with SOME). Even Samuel, as a missionary, must have believed (at the time) that he was doing the Lord's work. Anyway, I didn't mean to say that you were being dishonest, I'm sorry it came out that way. I think it's great that you want to help people and that you stick around for them. Being an honest and true friend to others is really what true happiness is all about. You sound like a good guy and I hope you do find what you are looking for.
- M.A.
MA This is what you said in a previous post “ I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but WHY are you investigating the church if you don't plan on getting baptised?”
Can you see what you are saying here ? You only want investigators who are planning to baptise, that’s a contradiction and shows how manipulated you really are .Investigators investigate , If they find out its false they don’t baptise , its as simple as that .
You said “You're stringing the Elders along and wasting their time “ .
Ive told them countless times not to bother with me or waste time if they can see I’m not a potential convert . But they keep coming and coming and why ? Simple because I am the best investigator they have ever had and they know it . I can talk about the Book Of Mormon on their level because I have read it and not just read it , I have studied it out in my mind !!!
Remember they have the gift of discernment , they've been set apart so they know if I'm genuine or not .Each new one seems to think that baring his testimony will make a difference but it won't , I can see right through that lying , Its so stupid , hardly any of them know anything , they are just left to wander about and yes if they knock on enough doors they are bound to find a vulnerable victim they can torture mentally.
I was told to ask all the questions I have . Well the reality is different . I can’t ask the questions I have , I have tried and Mormon Love turns to a Phobia of Satan trying to whisper to them . Of course most in church are so genuine and do try to help, but there are a few ‘Danite ‘ types , The Bishop and one of his councillors and one or two others .
When I’ve tried to mention polygamy , I get one or two ‘widows’ excuses and if I try to challenge that assumption then the atmosphere goes sour . Truth Hurts , everyone seems to be in some kind of denial . I know what its like when I was influenced by the JW’s , I could see the contradictions and lies and yet somehow I was able to ignore them and even keep them back from investiagtors ? Mind manipulation is scary .... When I look back I can’t believe how I lived like that. I see the same psychology in the Mormon Church and the good news is that it can be cracked , People can be helped , those who are willing and claim they are open minded can be rescued from bondage to Power Hungry Priesthood Holders.
I have a mission to save someone from this cult who is dear to me and I’ll work 24 hours a day to do it . Why ? because I happen to believe in Unconditional Love ,Honesty and Truth .
Leaving Mormonism doesn’t have to take away a basic belief of better things in the next life through Jesus Christ’s gift for everyone.( and not just a few temple recommend holders – its not worth the paper its written on ). How stupid can you get in religion , a piece of paper which makes the difference between going to heaven or not . Its worse than the Catholic indulgences which you are quick to point out when you go trashing other churches .
There’s also that D&C statement that Tithe Payers will not be burned at his coming ??? D&C 64:23…. How ridiculous and threatening ? Paying for salvation !
Reminds me of Mormon 8;32 32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be achurches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.
I happen to believe that Families will always be together in the next scheme of things and I don’t demand 10% for the privilege and a life of stress and intimidation . Neither will I scare people into having sex with me to be saved like the tyrant Joseph Smith did .
I haven’t looked too deep at Joseph Smith’s polygamy because it would make me physically sick after what I’ve read about briefly on Todd Comptons book and listened to his interviews on the internet .
Elder Joseph
M.A, you aren’t going to last too long in the church if you keep spending time here and apologizing profusely to these ex members now apostates. You’re on the wrong road here.
Soon you'll be another misfit marie.
That's what I first said too.
Guys, Marie came here asking for our advice and support. We all know the time will eventually come when she will tell her parents and family. No one knows for sure when this will happen or how they will react. Just know, Marie, when that time comes, we will be here for you no matter what happens.
Your parents might totally surprise everyone and recognize your right to choose and continue to offer you love and support. Let's all hope that is the case as it is how Jesus taught it should be. For now, hang in there and make the most of your education.
Wow. Samuel, your interpretation of what I said was amusing to say the least.
Elder Joseph, you've been at this site for awhile now, so I'm not sure why you think the missionaries are lying to you. Samuel has said over and over again that mormons are brainwashed, so if that's true, the missionaries are really sincere when they bear their testimonies to you. If they're as brainwashed as Samuel is preaching here, they have no idea that what they're saying is so wrong. I imagine from their point of view you are this awesome guy who really knows the gospel and would benefit so much from all the blessings of the gospel. Of course I don't know the missionaries you're working with, so I could be way off (again). Anyway, I did apologize for my earlier comments, so lets try to move past that, okay?
Marie, you of course are a smart girl with the freedom to do what you will concerning your family. I simply wanted to show you that there isn't always an unhappy ending when someone leaves the church. There are enough anti sites full of ex-mormons who have left and been disowned by their families and all that. I figure you've heard enough of those experiences. I wanted to give you hope that it isn't ALWAYS that bad. Samuel has a way of twisting the things people say here to sound absurd and stupid, and I'm not sure why he does it.
Ray, you've always been curteous and respectful and I really appreciate it.
And Jose, nobody here wants to hear from you, so please stop already.
-M.A.
Thanks for everyone's input! It was helpful. I've read this blog for a little while now, and I've enjoyed it. Thank you Ray, M.A., and Elder Joseph, and especially Samuel.
In Samuel's defense... I'd be pretty pissed off at all of it if too if I had to go through what he and others had to. I, luckily, am young and unmarried. It will be an easier thing for me to do than if I had children or I were married to a Priesthood holder or what not.
It's his blog, and if he wants to be angry, so be it. He's always very straight-up and tells things just how he views them and is very open to intelligent, straightforward answers.
Throwing the fire back and forth is not going to put it out. You sound like a very kind and understanding person, M.A. and I'm sorry if I sound overly-defensive. I've made "friends" of a kind here and I've been able to express a part of myself that I would keep hidden other times.
I can just understand the anger, is all I'm saying... all that pain!
Love at home, people.
OMG - I can't believe I just said that!
Anonymous - I started questioning my church four years ago. It wasn't until I came across a Recovery Forum as well as Samuel the Utahnites blog that I discovered Apostates WERENT evil, Satanic people and they were going through just what I was going through. It was very eye-opening for me and has motivated me to change and save myself. I had no idea there were so many people going through what I was going through, or worse. Through all the hard times and the fear, pain, guilt, etc... I feel very lucky for this to happen at this time in my life. I needed it more than you know.
Your comment made me laugh.
Misfit Marie
M.A., Thank you. I feel that you too have been respectful and courteous, so the appreciation is mutual.
Marie, It is wonderful that you were able to find help when you did. There are many more people out there who still feel that way and still think that they are totally alone.
There are people questioning the church everywhere. The church tries to make them believe that they have a problem and only by more fully complying with the rules can they overcome it.
Congrats Marie, you have not wasted your whole life believing in a bunch of superstitious nonsense. One of my regrets is that I was not able to truly enjoy my youth. I had my fun, but for the most part, I was busy being "good" and surpressing many of my desires for the sake of being "righteous". That's not necessarially a bad thing either, except that I would have liked to do and try certain things that I never did (that excludes drugs, smoking, and excessive alcohol as I understood, both then and now, that these things really should be avoided, not because of religious reasons but logical reasons.)
Elder Joseph, your stories are amazing. You are totally right, if people were presented with the WHOLE pie, how many of them would join? How many stay active now only because they do not know certain facts? Like your friend, he was struggling but the Truth changed his life.
The problem, is that it is difficult to know who to help. Because if you are a Mormon, you are supposed to be happy. If you are not happy, you pretend to be happy. If you don't have a testimony, you pretend to have a testimony. Sadly, being Mormon is all about playing pretend.
Sure, there are those who truly believe it and have no problem with the issues. We should not try to change their mind. If they love the church, let them stay. But for those who only stay because they lack the truth, let's do our best to find them and help them.
Hi to all ,
We have a spiritual bond somehow and its ……………… Mormonism ! lol The very thing that’s winding us all up .
M.A….. no worries , you sound a good Mormon , I’m grateful for your politeness and efforts to be friends with us and have understanding .I wish all Mormons were like you . You might be interested at my update on Samuels New Blog ( Missionary Sex Abuse Accusation ).
Ray … you are correct we are looking for those who are held captive by lack of Information and not those who have chosen to be in despite all the odds stacked against it . Really I worry about those who stay despite the evidence , it shows how much youcan be conditioned to believe anything , so the less exposure to this Mormonism the better the chance of getting out . Keep up the good work . Like it says somewhere in D&C about the Joy of saving one soul !! lol
Misfit Marie …… Keep up your search and keep a balanced view , no one would condemn you if you happen to stay in Mormonism after weighing up the evidence for the other side of the story although we’d be surprised and shocked perhaps ! lol
I’ve spent all my day off work on Mormonism ! So now I need a couple of hours rest . Its been a stressful day . If you read my update on Samuels latest blog in the comments you’ll get an idea of what’s happened .
There is one song I can’t stand in church “ we thank thee o God for a prophet “ I really do want to run out of Sacrament meeting .
Catch you soon
Elder Joseph
Marie , I too had great repercussions when I told my family and friends about my unbelief, but I could no longer live a lie. This is a personal decision that is different for everyone, make your own decision. But for me I would rather no relationship with family and friends than a false one based on the Mormon cult. While I have lost family and friends for coming out , I have also gained several true and lasting friends.
Hey, thanks Elder Joseph. I appreciate your remarks.
My goal has never been to offend anyone here or debate what's true or not true. I'm certainly not delusional enough to attempt to re-convert anyone here! But because of my brother, I have always been curious about what really drives people away from the church, and if I can have a fair conversation with people about it, I like to take that opportunity. Even when I was inactive, it was only because I just couldn't be bothered to go, not because of any particular doctrine or anything like that. If I ever seem like I'm judging you or say things that are way off, call me on it. I don't get offended easily.
MisfitMarie, you don't ever have to apologize for defending your friends - it's what friends do. I hope things work out for you whatever you do.
-M.A.
Hey M.A.,
Let's take one thing/issue at a time. I'll post something and you respond, okay? Please explain the following quote(was it inspired/was it true), by the 2nd Mormon "Prophet, Seer and Revelator" and how you justify it:
Brigham Young:
Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).
You say that you want to understand us? Well, I'm dying to understand how you and all other TBM apologists can justify this pathetic, racist SHIT, that supposedly fell from the lips of an inspired Prophet of God!! Either it was true or it wasn't and your either support it or you don't...like Hinckley says, "no gray areas, it's black or white."
Samuel
Hey M.A. when you're done with that one, please respond to this one, okay?
Brigham Young:
"Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife [Young had at least 53 wives] whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands" (J. of D., Vol. 3, p. 247).
Samuel
Hey Samuel,
I've never read any volume of the Journal of Discourse, so I can't fully answer your questions here - especially not the second quote you left, cause I have no idea. I'll have to look into the second one. As far as the first quote, I'll I can say is that you're absolutely right, church history is full of racism. But who wasn't racist back then?
Joseph Smith said, "A prophet isn't always a prophet." Not everything the Prophets and other church leaders say is meant to be taken as inspired revelation. And if you do your research, there were actually a few black men ordained to the priesthood in the early church. But yes, the church was racist along with everyone else at the time. Where exactly is the big secret here?
-M.A.
At various times the Lord commanded his people to practice plural marriage, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and they were challenged by this command, but obeyed it. Wilford Woodrruff recieved a revelation to cease this practice and the church now has nothing to do with the practising of polygamy. If we could forget being exotic and become generic, losing ourselves in the gospel the church will be stronger- stated when all worthy men allowed to hold the priesthood. The Lord did not extend the priesthood or gospel to all men at once as part of his plan for the gospel. In 1978- Accordingly, all worthy male members of the church may be ordained to the preisthood without regard to race or color. I do not know exactly what Brigham meant by that, but Cain killed his brother. Brigham also says- For their abuse of that race, the whites will be cursed, unless they repent. As for the first statement about the javelin thing, His says after that statement - Every man and women has got to have clean hands and a pure heart, to execute judgement, else they had better let the matter alone. You who trifle with your covenants, be careful lest in judging you will be judged. So he is saying we best be clean of sin before we judge someone elses sins. And women are allowed to pray in our church. Each of us are here for a purpose, men hold the preisthood and women are able to have children. Just like the world wouldn't function properly if we all were Doctors. All people make mistakes, it just seems they notice the mormon mistakes more. There are bad apples in every religon but it is not a reflection of the church itself.
As a convert and as I see it. Your site works for two kinds of people. Those who are living a lie and need to feel better about their choices or those who feel inferior. I applaud your passion but feel it has been misplaced. However this America and this is the web.
Post a Comment