Just to fully quote Eric Hoffman, at the end of his "living truth podcast #3", he said, word for word:
"As long as you believe Joseph Smith and believe his lies, you will lose your soul forever."
And:
"Believing this false doctrine that Satan taught and that Joseph Smith believed and that Brigham Young carried out to all the rest of the Prophets, will keep you out of the Kingdom of Heaven forever. These are dangerous grounds folks; to believe in Mormonism, it really is........
Today I received an Email from a person named Martin, who has had personal correspondence with Eric and his preacher buddy, over on Eric's new website and Martin has now been officially banned, for disagreeing with Eric and his preacher and for using an occasional bad word, which Eric uses all the time in his personal, "Not doing a Christian podcast or blogging" life.
Martin basically called Eric and his gang out and they couldn't and wouldn't respond, couldn't take the heat, so they booted him. So much for Eric saying and basically pleading, "Please Email me, leave a comment, if I have said or taught anything that is wrong or false, please let me know, I want to hear from you...everyone." So he begs for people to call him out or correct him and when they do, like Martin has done, he boots your ass right out of there, after grilling you on your motives, purpose, etc.
In any case, Martin entitled this article he wrote, "Fanaticism and a Saint called Eric Hoffman" and I added a few things to the title of my choosing. I'm giving Martin a forum and place to post his comments, since Eric will not allow him to post them there any longer. Again, Eric's hypocrisy shines bright, as he complains about how awful and judgmental Mormons are, how they excommunicate them, toss them aside, etc, while he is busy booting anyone out of his forums, that just disagrees with him. What a joke!! What a hypocrite!!
Just so everyone knows; anyone that is booted from Eric Hoffman's website, for simply having a different opinion(or for saying damn, hell or shit), that have something they want to say about him or his words and condemnations, are welcome to have me post them here, for all to read. Eric can shut you guys down in his little pathetic Christian world of condemnation and his little website, but he cannot silence you here and let me know if I can be of any help, to make sure that he doesn't silence you and that you are able to get your words out there.
Anyway, here is the unedited, word for word article by Martin:
Fanaticism and hypocrisy:
Mt 23:24-25-"Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess."
Mt 15:18- "Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man."
In his time, Jesus met many people who were zealous in their strife for religious purity. However, Jesus did not agree to their zeal. Instead of striving for what is right and just, the Pharisees stressed things which are really unimportant. Instead of caring about purifying their hearts, they just strived for outward cleanliness. Being fanatic about unimportant things, while neglecting what is really important, is called hypocrisy.
I experienced one example of modern day hypocrisy recently, when I started to listen to Eric Hoffman's podcast, "Living truth podcast". I am a Protestant, not an LDS, but I was and am interested in Mormonism, as it can show how a religion develops from its beginnings; we have many good external sources about how the LDS faith evolved from its foundation in 1830, but we only have fragmented and mostly unobjective sources for the beginnings of Christianity.
When I listened to Eric's podcast, I was quite startled. On the one hand, he used many arguments Samuel also used in his podcast, but on the other hand, he always contrasted this with an idealized and white-washed version of Christianity which is scientifically untrue. As I have studied the origin of the Bible and Bible history from a scientific perspective a bit, I was amazed how biased his view on the Bible was.
Indeed, when I studied Mormonism, I recognized that most problems faced in this faith (and which e.g. Samuel complains about in his podcast) are also present in Christianity. Archaeological problems, problems with immorality of church officials, the general involvement of Christianity in wars, torture, human rights violations, etc. In many of these aspects, Christianity is not any better when compared to Mormonism.
However, as I listened to Samuel's podcast, I recognized that the LDS faith really has some aspects which are troubling, especially the psychological manipulation of its members, e.g. when men are brainwashed from childhood on to go on a mission. Samuel's podcast, at least in my point of view, has two main goals:
To point out the psychological manipulations and other injustices the Mormon church performs (he uses words like "cult" etc. to refer to this manipulative abuse of LDS members), thus also helping current members to recognize these topics; the other objective is to work things out for himself, for the experience that one has been betrayed almost one's whole life, by a group which one holds so dear is a great shock, which has to be mentally processed. I think the foul language he sometimes used is just an expression of this anger. In this point, his podcast is also "therapeutic" for himself.
Back to my main topic, the Pharisee Eric Hoffman:
Eric's approach is very different. Instead of pointing out the negative "cult attributes" of the LDS faith or working on his personal life story, Eric's only aim is to convert LDS members to his own notion of Christianity. However, as he does so, he develops the very same negative attributes he attacks in the Mormon church.
Absolute truth claim:
Eric claims to have THE correct interpretation of the Bible. When I presented him the fact that the Bible has numerous different interpretations and that indeed modern science often can show that the Biblical texts are not literally/historically true, but meant symbolically, Eric got extremely nervous and tried to change the topic as fast as possible, accusing me of bad motives, asking me why I was posting on his blog,etc. He did so because he could not answer my questions or refute my claims.
In this aspect, Eric Hoffman does not differ an inch from the absolute truth claim of the LDS church. He seems to believe that he is some kind of Pope. By doing a bit of reading in some conservative Christian commentaries on the Bible, he thinks he knows everything about the historical background necessary for understanding the Bible. The fact that he chooses the commentary and thus influences his own image of the Bible is not recognized by him.
Intolerance:
When Joseph Smith claimed that God told him all other denominations were an abomination in God's sight, Eric thinks this to be a big scandal.
However, Eric is amazingly intolerant towards the LDS faith. The statement that they will "lose their souls forever" is, in my personal opinion, totally unacceptable, in every moral regard.
And this is where the quotes from Jesus step in:
Eric claims that the denomination you belong to and the theological details you believe in, determine whether you get into heaven or hell.
It is not important how you act, because it only depends on Eric's personal image of God, whose grace can save you.
Eric complains that the Mormons believe to be saved by grace "after all they can do". Eric's own personal Evangelical, right-wing God, does not save anyone by grace either.
Instead, this right-wing God, only saves by grace "after they believe in exactly the same doctrine as Eric Hoffman". Thus, Eric as the sole interpreter of the Bible puts himself to be the greatest man on earth, far greater than Jesus, whose words Eric interprets according to his personal opinion.
Mission activities:
One aspect which makes the LDS church suspicious is its aggressive mission activities. Stories like "bogus baptisms" or "Blitz-baptisms" show that many converts are not informed sufficiently, before being baptized. Many converts have not read all the Canonical works before the baptism is scheduled.
Eric starts to imitate this mission behavior in a similar way when talking to LDS people in front of the MTC(Mission Training Center), or other places to prove his point.
While it is totally ridiculous to prove any point by asking a random person on the street (I bet I could do very funny and embarrassing interviews on the Trinity by randomly asking people on the street for explanations...), he doesn't care for relevancy as long as he can make his point. Actually, I found that in many interviews, his opponents where making as good of an argument as he did (or as bad of an argument as he did; that depends on your point of view).
Fanaticism, intolerance against other opinions:
As I made statements which did not agree with his view on the trinitarian right-wing Bible interpretation, Eric got extremely angry, trying to drive me away from his board, first by changing the topic and asking me about my belief, why I post on his blog, etc. I recognized that while on the facade, he claimed to be open for debate ("open forum"), he actually only wants to convert everyone to HIS PERSONAL faith, and does not tolerate any other opinion.
By now, he has banned me from his forum, probably for posting a link to a pornographic website, with some bikini girls on it. You might guess which porno-site I mean... So the name "open forum" is actually a lie.
Moreover he has published other posters' private emails on his blog without asking them (at least, one listener complained about this), while stating on his website that "all mails are confidential."
To put it in a simple and biblical term: He is a liar.
This is just another facet of his hypocrisy. While every nice Mormon housewife who raises a bunch of kids, giving all she can, being faithful, loving towards her whole family, always helpful to neighbors, nice and tolerant even to Non-Mormon people, this person whom anyone knowing her, would call an "angel" and imagine her to sit on an honored seat at Jesus' table, when she will one day pass away. Of course this woman, will burn in hell and "lose her soul forever", because she doesn't believe in the very notion of God that his only Prophet on earth, Eric Hoffman believes in, while a person like Eric, is lying, deceiving, condemning, betraying, and abusing. This person, Eric Hoffman, is of course saved by the grace of the Jesus of his own personal Bible interpretation, which all of humanity has to bow down to.
It is only my personal opinion on the topic, but this is my prophecy:
Eric, you will wonder on the day of judgment, you will wonder how many Mormons will actually enter into the glory of heaven, you will wonder how many homosexuals will enter into the glory of heaven, and then you will say:
"What, I should enter into that place? A place full of Catholics, Mormons, fags, Muslims,...? What the f... I'd rather go to hell." (Oops, you said the 4-letter word, Eric, that may cost you your soul forever...) And God, in his almighty mercy, will grant you this very last wish...
The aim of my post is not just to rant against Eric (OK, I am guilty on this point), but to warn everyone not to become a religious fanatic like him. As Samuel pointed out, some months ago, Eric was a nice and decent man, but in a short time, the circumstances and his belief in absolute truth, turned him into a religious fanatic ,who shares all the attributes of a cult member.
While it is true that Mormonism contains many bad aspects which justify Samuel categorizing it as being a cult, the LDS people are human beings like you and me, and many people are doing their best and living according to their ideals.
They don't drink coffee and alcohol, but who cares?
I think it is most appropriate just to criticize the negative aspects like indoctrination and restraint of personal freedom (e.g. by letting them wear corporate identity underwear), but accept and love them for the persons they are.
Instead of fighting against special denominations, we should focus on fighting against injustice, fanaticism and intolerance in every part of society. All these aspects are the evils of society, they are e.g. the roots of terrorism we nowadays experience in the Islamic world, but they can really be found everywhere.
Terrorism starts when you condemn your Mormon neighbor.
Terrorism starts when you as a Priesthood holder abuse your power.
Terrorism starts when you as an Atheist disrespect all believers.
Terrorism starts when tags like "Evangelical", "Baptist", "Mormon", "Catholic" become more important to you than the people behind these tags.
Be aware about the terrorism that starts in your own home.
By changing your own heart, we can make a start for more tolerance, mutual understanding, peace and harmony in the world.
Martin
=============================================
Well, there it is guys and I think Martin did an awesome job, articulating, exactly what is wrong with Eric Hoffman's and others fanatical views of absolute truth and condemnation of anyone that doesn't believe as they do. There is no place for this and it helps no one and it must be stood up to, whether they are Mormon, Christian or any other religion.
Thanks Martin for writing this and for allowing me to share it with Mormon Truth readers/listeners and I hope that people, especially those like Eric Hoffman, or those that support his condemning ways, will pause to ponder, if that is the best way to show people the true love, understanding and compassion, that they profess to stand for. Like Martin phrased perfectly, we simply want to "warn everyone not to become a religious fanatic like him", and that is our goal.
Best wishes everyone and as always, thanks for your support and Emails of encouragement, they mean a lot to me.
Samuel the Utahnite
33 comments:
Neither of you seem to think knowing God as he is is that important. You limit your scope of morals to the human-interpersonal realm, and ignore the realm of ethics which concerns the supreme being, and the worship/honor/respect/love due to him. Your worldview presuppositionally prevents you from esteeming as improtant anyone's critique of a doctrine about the nature of God.
Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love God with all our heart, and the SECOND was to love our neighbor as ourselves. Both should be practiced together, not just the second. God isn't interested in an ethic where the second commandment is obeyed but the first is spurned.
Grace and peace in Christ,
Aaron
I've been on erics site and you're simply not being fair. I doubt anyone will take your site serious with such bias and hatered. I know I won't.
Dang Samuel. I listened to your podcasts from the beginning, up through the joint interviews with you, Eric and Jared. I thought the interviews with Jared were really good, and you both handled it well.
But I noticed an increasing bitterness in your tone, and now your outright focus and rage on Eric is simply amazing to me. I don't know you, but I do know Eric, and your comments about him are truly unfair and unjustified.
I am sad to say that I will exercise my right to not listen to you any more... the venom is too thick to stomach.
I wish the old Samuel would resurface, I feel like I am losing a friend.
Samuel,
You can defend yourself, and be angry with what was said about you, but man, you've said it and said it and said it, please move on and stop this venomous rampage.
You are losing viewers man. I don't even think you care at this point.
Yeah, Eric's views stink, but...they are nothing more than his views. So what? I don't agree with them, so I don't think about them.
I miss the old you too.
Blanket condemnations
Hi Martin, hi Samuel,
I just read this post and and was really amazed by it.
Where can I sign it?
I just want to point out another thing about blanket condemnations.
The special thing about blanket condemnations is that they are always directed at groups distinct from your own.
It is easy to condemn Blacks as inferior if you have a white skin.
It is easy to condemn homosexuals if you are hetero.
It is easy to condemn Mormons if you are a Born-Again cult member.
If Freud was still alive today, he would now shout "Projection!".
Those fundamentalists have their own problems, faults, bad sides, etc., but they suppress them because they have to present a
pure Christian facade.
It is like when you have to wear a white shirt at sacrament meeting. As Jesus pointed out, outside they are whited, but inside they are full of death and uncleanness.
So how can you deal with this: inside you have impure feelings, but on the outside you have to appear pure and loving? How can you deal with the inner conflict that you hate sin, but yet you feel like doing it, you feel hatered, you feel other forbidden things which are defined as sin?
Here is the answer: You project your own hatered and non-christlike feelings to the outside, onto another person or group of persons.
Then, you can blame on the outside what is really on the inside and thus be a good Christian (for blaming sin), but not having to blame yourself (who is really to blame).
This is the real motive behind most blanket condemnations.
Eric, in his strife to be a good Christian, does not face his own sins and problems (which he believes are all forgiven, this is an interesting aspect of his faith !!!), but projects them onto another group of persons, namely Mormons.
Thus, by his condemnations, he really addresses his own sins.
If you recognize this, you will think that he is really to be pitied.
Poor Eric, he in reality does not believe that his sins are forgiven, because he has to fight against them in a projected manner. Maybe he should be really born again !!! Jesus loves you, and Jesus loves Mormons.
Anyway, Sam, keep up the good work,
fight against injustice, not only in the Mormon cult but also the Born-again (oh, I mean "nondenominational") cult, and don't eyeball at beach-girls, you know about the eternal consequences for your soul!
Christoph.
Hi Samuel,
thanks for posting my article.
Man, I really was astonished when I saw the image you inserted. I had the exact same idea and wanted to suggest it to you:
The parallel between Joseph Smith, the final judge of Mormondom, and Eric Hoffman, the final judge of, well, all people who believe exactly the same thing as he does.
That may be only a bunch of people, but maybe Eric can gain more followers and create his own cult like Jim Jones did.
Personally, I wouldn't mind those negative reviews in the comment section, as they are probably posted by only one or two persons under different accounts (anonymous, brian,etc)
To all of those posters, I have a simple question: Why are you here, what are your motives? If you don't agree to Samuels notion of tolerance, love and acceptance, why do you post here instead of going back to your narrowminded Eric-Jonestown?
Anyway, thanks Sam for being courageous,
Martin
Hi Samuel and readers,
I stand with Samuel 100%. A Christian condemning a Jew is no better that a white man condemning a black man. They are both awful. If Jesus had one message, it was the message of tolerance. When asked what the greatest commandment was, Jesus replied, "Love God and love your neighbor." LOVE = TOLERANCE It's ironic that the only people who Jesus publically condemned were the hyprocritical Pharacees. If you recall, the Pharacees were self-righteous pricks who wanted the whole world to see how right they were and how wrong everyone else is!
Eric, if you read this, please take it to heart. Christianity is not all about how right you are and how wrong everyone else is. If thats what you think it is, then you have grosly mis-read the Bible. CHRISTIANITY IS ABOUT TOLERANCE!!!!! Think of the adultrous woman who was brought before Jesus. Did he condemn her to hell and take away her soul? No, he forgave her on the spot and simply counseled her to forsake the sin. He did not use harsh and angry words at her. Instead, he made an example of the Pharacees who had brought her to him by declaring, "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone"! Eric, unless you are perfect and have never made a mistake in your life, then you have no right to throw any stones (or blanket condemnations as Samuel calls them).
Samuel, I admire you for your courage to stand up for what is right. I could never do it as well as you do. Drop me a line sometime.
Let's all remember tolerance. If the whole world was more tolerant, what a wonderful world it would be!
Just a quick follow up...
Anyone who thinks Samuel's Uncensored Podcast is pornographic had better not ever go to the beach or anywhere near a swimming pool! Stay away from the underwear section at Wal-Mart, don't look at women's clothing magazines, or even any girl wearing an outfit that is form fitting! Be careful of your next door neighbor who might be sunbathing!
I just had to laugh when I read that! If that's really the case, then every man on earth is going to hell!
Hey,
I also just got dunked from Eric's forum, lol.
Nevertheless, I somehow want to come to his defence.
As I had some mail conversation with him, I saw that he is not that bad and evil as he is depicted here in the forum.
He may have some radical opinion about Christianity as the "only true religion" etc., but apart from that he is quite a decent guy.
The problem, I think, is rather that he is incited by his new friend "Theophilus".
Indeed, I got kicked by this person, not Eric.
I was just arguing with another user about Aristotelian logic, when this Theophilus (don't know his real name) was only trying to demean me on a constantly basis. As I ignored his insulting posts, he demanded that I have to answer him,etc.
I complained to Eric about him, after which this guy posted a small excuse, but then he started bashing me again.
All in all, while Eric tried to deescalate the situation, I rather think that this person named "Theophilus" is the bigger problem of
intolerance and the unwillingness to listen to other person's opinion.
Maybe Eric just had a wrong choice of friends...
Well, just my impression on the situation.
Scientist.
Hi Samuel,
I am very worried about Eric. Now that you pointed out that Theophilus is Joe McCormick, I see the dots connect.
- A decent, tolerant guy turning into a intolerant fanatic in short time.
- A nondenominational Christian promoting going to a special church.
- A host letting other persons moderate his own forum.
- A normal christian talking about sectarian ideas such as "spiritual warfare".
Folks, I hear them ringing, the SECT-alarmbells...
I suppose Eric got sucked into a "nondenominational" fanatic church led by Joe McCormick. This explains why he changed his opinion so fast.
The opinion that sceptics of the bible are demonic and fighting a spiritual warfare, as Eric claimed in his new "Oxymormonic" podcast is a sure sign of fanatic sectarianism. It is the very same behaviour Mormons are indoctrinated with. In LDS terminology, this is called "Anti-LDS". Whenever something is anti-LDS, a True Believing mormon is conditioned to avoid it at all cost.
The ears are sealed, the brain is shut down.
Eric develops exactly the same attitude. All people questioning the bible on logical or other grounds are "evil Anti-LDS" oops, I mean "evil anti-nondenominational-McCormicks".
This is why, in the last few days, a whole bunch of people have been banned from his forum. Joe McCormick, as a sectarian leader, has to shut down a reasonable and rational debate at all costs, because reasonable and rational debates could reveal the TRUTH *alarm-bell-ringing*.
Eric, if you are reading this:
Wake up, dude. You got sucked into just another sect which seems to be as evil as Mormonism. You might not be forced to wear sacred panties, but Joe McCormick is brainwashing and influencing you in the same way every Mormon is brainwashed.
Did you hold the "spiritual warfare" doctrine before you went to Joe's church?
Did you condemn everybody because of their beliefs before you went to Joe's church?
Did you always change your opinion so fast and radical as you did in the last months?
If not, take these signs and recognize that this guy is heavily manipulating you. He might call his church "christian" or "nondenominational", but he presents a distorted, fanatic picture of Christianity that is characterized by spiritual wars, evils, demons, etc., when all there is is some manic selfclaimed prophet who just wanted to have fun with more than one girl and who wanted to solve some contemporary bible problems.
The problem are not demons, the problem is that you are seriously mentally disturbed by the fanatic preachings of your new pal.
In the past, you wanted to help Mormons leave their cult, now you have turned into a cult member as well, leaving your brain at the counter, handing the moderator rights of your own website to your preacher/prophet/revelator.
Wake up and turn around before it's too late.
Eric, remember, the truth shall set you free, but don't search it in the fanatic sermons of your sectarian preacher bud.
As an aside, here is a wikipedia link to several cult-check lists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_checklist
In Eric's case, we find several signs of a cult:
hypocrisy, censorship, paranoia, wisdom or knowledge claimed by leaders,
etc. pp.
Thanks, Samuel for pointing that out.
I hope Eric reads this before Joe installs a webfilter on his PC.
Scientist.
Eric's new sect
---------------
Hi everyone,
Being worried about Eric's new friend Joe McCormick, I have done some research on the "Calvary Chapel" non-denomination,
and found some troubling articles.
Especially for you Samuel, as a former Mormon, these facts will ring the sect-alarm bells.
The first one talks about the church leadership which is totally unaccountable to its members.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/119/12.0.html
The interesting point are the following statements:
[Chuck] Smith had resisted the oversight of his denomination, and he now teaches that the senior pastor is solely accountable to God. "The pastor is ruled over by the Lord and recognized by the congregation as God's anointed instrument to lead the church, with the board guiding and directing"
"Under the Calvary structure, pastors and elders have little or no requirement to disclose finances or decisions to church members."
Sam, do these unaccountable structures ring a bell to you? I bet so.
The next link is a whole wiki which deals with the abuse inside Calvary Chapel.
http://calvarychapel.pbwiki.com/
I will just pick out one interesting fact:
Chuck Smith, the Calvary Chapel founder, predicted that Jesus would return to earth in 1981.
In this manner, Calvary Chapel is as sectarian as the Jehovas Witnesses which had several wrong predictions of Jesus supposed return.
Anyway, just to put this out and warn anyone not to follow Eric's suggestion to go to Mountain View Calvary Church in American Fork,
unless you want to join another Christian sect with false prophets and unaccountable leaders.
The truth shall set us free.
Scientist.
Bleach!! Thank you Scientist! I always appreciate knowledge. I'll steer clear.
Thanks.
I do not have much experience with Mormonism, so I don't know if I should post here.
But I attended Calvary Chapel for several years before changing to another denomination.
I am glad I am out of this cult.
On the outside, it seems to be a Christian church. They read the bible, sing hymns etc.
But behind the scenes, this system is very abusive and oppressing.
Instead of being uplifted and supported, the pastors only stress how sinful you are, that you have to pray more, study the scriptures more, witness more, be more faithful.
Once you are drawn into this, you lose contact to other friends, as they are not faithful enough and do not believe in the right doctrines.
Also, as the previous poster mentioned, the financial practices are very obscure. I never knew where one cent of the donated money went.
I am now attending a more liberal protestant church, and feel really free and uplifted.
It is like a burden that has been taken from me, like a heavy stone that has been lifted from my back.
Now I understand what the evangelist John meant when he said:
"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."(John 8:36)
I have a good reference I found helpful when recovering from my change.
It is the "Rick Ross Institute for the study of destructive cults, controversial groups and movements" located in New Jersey.
http://www.rickross.com/
A list of quotes, many of which I find applicable to the Church I visited, can be found here:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/calvary/calvaryvisitor.html
As I said, I don't know much about Mormonism, but from what I read I think it is equally destructive to Calvary Chapel.
So I appreciate your work, Samuel (funny name!).
Beth Johnson.
Hey everyone, here is another great link on Rick Ross' website, with more stories about this "Calvary chapel" and how people have been treated and their personal feelings and experiences. To me, this erases any doubt, that it is a cult.
Comments On The Calvary chapel
Also, there is no doubt that Eric Hoffman's "Calvary Mountain View Chapel", is of the same network as has been mentioned above.
If you guys go to the main website of Calvary Chapel and search for Eric's Church(zip code-84003), there it is, in American Fork, Utah, with Pastor Joe McCormick....BINGO!!
So, if anyone tries to claim, that Eric's Calvary Mountain View, shouldn't be held accountable for all of these unhappy people, the scandals in other places like New Mexico and what Chuck Smith has said, well, it has to be, just like all Mormon ward, branches, stakes and districts, link back to Salt Lake City. It is the same exact thing.
Just like Mormonism, the problems are mostly at the top and then filtered down through the leadership, as each Pastor has the ultimate authority, can do whatever they want and report to nobody about anything. I think in many ways, this Church sounds worse than Mormonism or is at least just as bad and damaging.
Once again, just like any cult, it is the average good person/member, that is the one that suffers the most, with the treatment they receive from their God-complex preachers, who can do no wrong and answer to nobody.
We can clearly see this arrogance and overbearing power and authority/God complex, over on Eric's new site/forum with TheoJoe's heavy handed tactics. As TheoJoe said on one of his posts...either you concede every point I've made or don't bother responding....now isn't that exactly what we are talking about?
Also, the, "we want skeptics, not critics", was a very telling comment that was very revealing to me, about this mans character, before I even knew what I learned today.
Here is the link to Eric's Church, right off of the main Calvary Church website
Thanks again Scientist and Beth, for the great links, and for enlightening all of us, maybe even Eric, as this was all new to me today. I think we are finally getting somewhere and can now understand better what has been happening with Eric and why he has changed so much.
Talk to you guys later and please leave any more comments or experiences with this cult, for those that have the knowledge or have been personally involved with it, as I'm sure it will be able to help somebody.
Take care,
Samuel
I listened to Eric for a long time until his comments turned into condemnation of people instead of a love for Christ. He may end his podcasts and posts with the phrase "grace and peace", but when the entire message is one of intolerance, the words ring hollow.
Eric may be a nice guy, I don't know, but when I began hearing his message of intolerance, WHAM, right then I thought of a four letter word, cult.
I do not know or even care much anymore about what Eric is doing. I am simply finished listening to his message of intolerance. His message does not seem Christian to me, no matter how often he invokes the Bible or the name of Christ. He seems like one more bigot. I am too old to spend my time reading or listening to him, particularly when he sounds more like a cult leader than did any of the Mormon leaders.
So goodbye to Eric, I hope he fares well. I do not hate him or wish him ill, I just simply do not wish to read his new websites or listen to his podcasts.
Bottom line, this is Samuel's blog and podcast, and he has a right to say whatever he pleases. I am glad that he expresses himself so freely.
Samuel had my 100% support. keep up the great work Samuel!
Bonnie
Hey Bonnie,
I mostly agree to you, but also have one slight point of disagreement.
First of all, you are right that
"He may end his podcasts and posts with the phrase "grace and peace", but when the entire message is one of intolerance, the words ring hollow."
and that
"His message does not seem Christian to me, no matter how often he invokes the Bible or the name of Christ."
There is a nice bible verse which talks about this:
"Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men" (Isa 29:13)
Eric preaches a totally superficial religion. As long as you stick to the right denomination and beliefs, Eric's God's grace will save you. But he teaches only the precept of men, that is, his personal interpretation of the bible, and everyone has to "bow his head and say yes", or he/she will be condemned.
Reality is far more complex than this black-white thinking.
For example, if you study Buddhism closely, you will find that many precepts Jesus taught in the bible can also be found there. Even if Buddhism seems to be very different on the surface, because there is no personal (shall I say anthropomorphic?) God, behind this surface, you will find more similarities, even statements which are almost literally identical between Buddha and Jesus. When now such a Buddhist who lives up to all of Jesus' ideals, which are also contained in Buddha's teachings, will stand at the Gate of heaven, will he be invited by a loving Jesus, or will he be resented by a hateful Eric Hoffman???
Thus, we should try to see the essence of people, and not only their labels.
Your statement that you just don't listen to Eric's condemnation-podcasts anymore is good and honourable. I think that it is nevertheless important that Samuel covers this topic for the following reason:
When a person is raised in the LDS faith, he/she will incorporate a passive attitude of accepting any doctrine from the leadership. If this wasn't the case, there would be much more LDS people asking about doctrines of past prophets and questioning their leadership.
As Samuel will most probably agree, coming out of this attitude of passive acceptance is hard work, and takes a lot of time. It is painful and takes a lot of effort.
What is the relation to other cults like Joe McCormick's Calvary Chapel?
The transition between two cults is much easier, as the person only has to change the doctrines, but not his/her attitude of passive acceptance. What such a person really needs to do is self-responsible thinking and making one's own decisions.
Therefore, there is always a great danger that a person entrapped in a cult, instead of really becoming free and self-responsible, will just change the cult and its doctrines.
There are many examples in history which prove this tendency.
One example is the Anti-Mormon Bill Schnoebelen.
He changed his religion several times, but what stayed constant is his fanaticism and radical belief in whatever he may adhere to at that moment.
He was as fanatic a Satanist, a Freemason, a New Age adherent, a Mormon as he now is a fundamental Christian (and he believes in UFOs as well).
This dangerous tendency to change only the surface doctrine instead of the deep attitude of free thinking is therefore an opportunity for every cult to recruit members from other cults. That's why, often radical Christians like Ed Decker or Joe McCormick try to convert
Mormons, because they are good "material" for new fanatic members.
Therefore, I think that it is important that Samuel points this out, so that LDS people do not just exchange their cult for another, but really become "free at last".
Greets,
Scientist.
I do sometimes have difficulty reading your blog because the anger level is a little high. The feeling of betrayal from the Mormon church is understandable, but you also have to know when it comes to things like this you are quite literally preaching to the choir.
Dear Samuel,
In my opinion, you should not refer to that person Eric Hoffman any more?
Why?
Because his new podcast is highly pornographic.
I have just visited the new webpage of him and his boyfriend Brian, and oops,
he had posted a picture of a couple in holy garments.
http://www.smithbusters.com/OxyMormonics/OMOTW/7A3AA81D-8348-4FE5-9457-88A2385E3856_files/garment.png
I find that picture extremely repulsive, because it is highly pornographic.
If my son visited this website, he might be led to masturbating, which in turn inevitably leads to the grossest sin of homosexuality, as we all know.
Therefore, I plead you not to mention this person, who propagates such pornographic pictures on his websites, again.
I mean, I almost lost my soul forever when seeing this picture, but thanks to God (mot the trinitarian one), I had my own garments on protecting me from lusting.
Anyway, be careful of that guy, he is a wolf in sheep's clothes,
preaching against pornography, yet practicing it.
Linda Guernsey.
Sinister Porpoise,
Is anyone forcing you to read my blogs? Why don't you just stop and then you won't have to deal any longer with "anger level that is a little too high" or "my preaching to the choir." This blog is not for everyone and wasn't created to be for everyone and I'm not taking polls on what it should or shouldn't be. Some things may be of value to others that aren't of value to you and vice versa.
As far as my preaching to the choir, well, just because you know something, doesn't mean that others do. As you can see from the comments (that didn't come from Eric Hoffman or his supporters), most people are grateful that I would point this out and expose this Christian for his awful blanket condemnations, while professing his love and heart for the Mormon people. Somebody had to take out the trash, so I did, proudly.
Look, I will discuss anything I want to on my blog, that's why it is my blog and the reason that I started it. I wanted a censorship free place to come to and say whatever I felt like saying or was feeling, so why would I care that you don't like it? Again, you don't like it, can't stomach it, then move on and don't read it, but it ain't changing. I will continue to say or express whatever I want to and it has been that way since I started it and will always be that way.
There is a little X, in the upper right hand corner, and all you have to do is click it and this page just goes away. If you don't like what you read here, then I make the suggestion that you use that X.
Also, my style or "anger", which I call "intense passion against fraud, injustice, lies and deceit", is what has made this blog so popular and what people love or hate about it. I would say that overall, I receive about 8 or 9 positive comments or emails to every negative one, so obviously, it's working. I always try to use the facts and truth, to come to my opinions, whether they are popular or not.
I have people everyday, that email me that say thank you, I understand your pain and anger, because I have it too and that they are glad to know that someone understands. I have people that thought I was too angry, and then a few months later, after their wife left them or family wouldn't associate with them, due to their disbelief, understood why I was so pissed off.
I don't know what your situation is Sinister, or if you were ever Mormon, but unless you've been through what many of us have, in losing so much, in order to have the truth in our life, you don't have a clue what we are talking about or why we are so angry.
Again, my blogs and podcasts are mine and are firstly, to help me express what I'm feeling and thinking and secondly, through my personal expression, to help others out there, that need the help, which has been very effective to this point.
Also, I tried linking to your blog, through your name, but there's nothing there? When are you gonna start your blog, as I'd be very interested in reading what you have to say.
As always, you and everyone else is free to express their opinions, unlike Eric's new site and many others out there and I, of course, am free to express my opinions and disagree.
Take care and best wishes....or as Eric or Aaron always say...before they condemn you to "lose your soul forever"...
Grace and peace,(LOL!!-sorry, preaching to the choir again...I know..I know!!)
Samuel
Linda Guernsey,
I loved your post and thank you so much for pointing out this obvious hypocrisy, which is one thing I detest. I hate the "do as I say, not as I do" people. Ironic isn't it? That picture of two people in their garments, is far worse than 4 girls in bikinis. I mean, at least bikinis are legal to wear in public, but underwear, as far as I know, is not.
I hope that Eric is not tempted to "get off" when he sees two people wearing their Mormon garments or he may "lose his soul forever" and then have to go confess to Joe McCormick, his local cult leader.
Also, do they think, that by using that picture, that they will be able to help more Mormons and endear themselves and prove to them how big their heart is for them? Won't that picture be very offensive to the very Mormons they profess to love so much?
Thanks for pointing out how ridiculous and hypocritical Eric is, in saying that my site will now be a place for guys to go, to masturbate and "get off" on my "highly pornographic" and "highly offensive" website. He went from "somewhat pornographic" to "highly pornographic", in describing my picture of Joseph scoping out the babes.
Hey, any of my readers here, that are actually using the picture on my "Mormon Truth Uncensored" to masturbate? Please let us know!! LOL!!;)
In any case, I laughed my ass (3 letter word) off, reading your comments and I thank you for writing such a great comment, pointing out how absurd this man has become, in his new fanatical beliefs, that are so disconnected from all reality.
But, as you said, "Anyway, be careful of that guy, he is a wolf in sheep's clothes, preaching against pornography, yet practicing it."
Can we get a big AMEN?!!
Thanks again Linda and feel free to comment anytime.
Take care everyone,
Samuel
Samual, take a deep breath, relax. I have yet to see a post of yours that isn't ranting. I came her for a fairly innocent purpose -- to get links to other blogs who participate in the Carnival of the Veil.
Your response to me is indicative of what I was talking about. I never said you didn't have the right to do so, just that you fail to understand your position. You are changing no one's mind if you're stated intention is to convince people that the Mormon church is a fraud. Instead, your street preacher style causes people to retreat into their own comfort zones. Your site is not one I'd recommend to someone who has questions about church history or doctrine.
I believe it was Voltaire who said, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Since you take it upon yourself to attack anyone with whom you have a disagreement you must be prepared for this kind of response. You have a right to post what you want. It's your blog. You have the ability and the right to delete any comments you don't like. As the administrator, you also have the responsibility to remove/report any posts that might be suspicious. If you don't like what I say, you are free to remove any comment of mine.
I've been a moderator on message boards, I won't complain unless it's something stupid like Blogger chaning "the LDS church" to the "Church of Jesus Christ" like they did on my own blog. (And I did, like you'd expect rant about that. I can't even imagine why they did it. It was a stupid and senseless edit.) But, I recognize anger when I see it, I spent a good portion of my early adult life angry at every thing and my reactions were much like yours are now. It's not an easy thing to get over, but you must get over it if you'll ever find any peace with your own Mormon past. (Assuming Mormonism is the issue for you.)
Samuel,
Your obsession with Eric Hoffman has rendered you incapable of moving on. You said in an earlier post “that this was it.” You were not going to say anything else. You also said; and I quote you, "You guys can try really hard to censor me, control me and manipulate me, but you will fail, so don't even try." So should we try to censor you or not???? I am confused. Point is you are no better than Eric Hoffman. You condemn people that do not agree with you. How is this any different?
So after this will be your mile long rant on how I can just go somewhere else or “go follow Eric.” I used to really enjoy your podcast, but have come to realize you are rather unstable.
Greets,
-Tasha
Hi tasha,
the difference between Samuel and Eric "Bikini" Hoffman is that Samuel criticizes anyone who holds other opinions, and he has the right to do so.
When we talk about condemnation in this blog or podcast, however, we are referring to the Christian thought that people would "lose their soul forever".
In that regard, there is quite a difference between the two.
Samuel does not say that anyone will lose their soul forever, neighter the average Mormon who is born or lulled into their church, nor other people.
Instead, he criticizes the very concept "Bikini" Hoffman is promoting on his blog,who also justified his condemnation in a recent "open" forum (which is also a self-contradiction to the high practice of censorship performed by his Calvary Chapel preacher, which by the way is regarded as a cult by several sect institutes.) post.
When Samuel refers to the term condemnation and "lose your soul forever", it is just used as a cynical means to show how ridiculous this opinion really is.
So, Samuel does not condemn anyone, neighther Mormons, nor evangelical Christians, but criticizes bigotry, selfrighteous "holier than thou" attitudes and abuse of power on both sides. His tone might not suit you, but as he pointed out, that's his style, so we have to deal with it or search another place to stay and listen :-).
For my part, I like this passionate way of talking, his zeal for the right thing.
Wasn't Jesus also passionate when it came to real injustice?
If you read the new testament, whom did Jesus argue with great passion?
The sinner, the whore, the publican? No!
The hypocritical pharisees. And when he saw the hypocritical temple practices, he got mad and even became violent, an interesting aspect of our "half god, half man" Jesus.
I suppose that Samuel would change his passionate behaviour only if he had removed all hypocracy and injustice from this planet, I have doubt that he will succeed, but every first step is a step in the right direction.
So keep up the good work,
May the grace and peace of Jesus, who condemns only hypocrites, be with you.
And the force too (*star wars gesture*).
Chris
Thanks Christoph for your response to Tasha and I'll just let that stand.
Some people just don't understand life, or the need for anyone to speak out against anybody, no matter how wrong someone may be or even if they are condemning innocent people, while pretending to love them.
In their eyes, the person speaking out against the injustice, then becomes the bigger problem, for calling out the person that is obviously in the wrong and for criticizing their blanket condemnation of innocent people. They obviously just don't understand the basic concepts in life or are just defending their belief that the condemner is correct in their blanket condemnations.
It's obvious that Tasha either fits into this category or is a huge Eric Hoffman supporter or just doesn't care in general for justice and truth, or she supports people that spew "bigotry, self-righteous 'holier than thou' attitudes and abuse of power." I sincerely hope that it's none of the above, I really do.
In my life, I've met many people that are book smart and life stupid, as they have no common sense or ability to discern or differentiate between right and wrong, injustice or justice and they just want to live in a "warm and fuzzy, let's make love not war world." It is sad, but all too common.
I'm glad that I and many others, including you Christoph, have the courage to stand up to these people like Eric Hoffman, who are hypocrites in every sense of the word and preach one thing with their mouth, while doing the complete opposite.
As far as my continuing to comment on Eric Hoffman...well, what am I supposed to do; ignore every comment about him, including yours Tasha? Maybe if you Tasha, quit bringing him up, I'd stop talking about him and so would others. Your comment, kept it going and required Christoph and myself to comment. Ironic, isn't it? You want it to end, but commented anyway. So, if you respond to these comments, we'll probably have to comment some more, okay? I don't care if we end up with 100 comments on this post, as long as everyone gets to say what they want to say.
I will continue to answer every comment that rolls in and I don't care how long it goes on. If people have something to say, they should feel free to say it, even it makes you Tasha and others so uncomfortable.
Also, after I made the comment that I would stop talking about Eric, new information rolled in from Scientist, regarding Eric's "Calvary cult" and cult leader, Joe McCormick.
I'll probably continue talking about Eric, when the subject arises, along with whatever else I want to talk about, like Van Hale only reading a small part of my Email on his show tonight and lying about what he'd said earlier in the show, in order to make me look as bad as possible. He has done the same thing to Deconstructor and Randy Jordan. Van Hale is one of the biggest double talkers/Mormon Apologists, that has ever lived.
I'll be releasing my full Email that I sent him and his actual comments tonight, for all to read and hear. He likes to pick and choose what he reads or posts from my Emails, in order to slant it to his favor and be as deceitful as possible.
Anyway, gotta run, thanks everyone for your comments and participation and I'll have my new post up tonight, about whose worse, die-hard Mormons or die-hard Christians and yes, it does include Eric Hoffman and his cult leader, so beware, those of you that can't handle anymore of this truth, especially you die-hard Eric Hoffman supporters and followers. You guys should all start your own cult, seriously, since you love this guy so much and hang on his every word. He will gladly be your Prophet, Seer and Revelator, I'm sure, since he already pronounced his authority to decide who keeps their soul or "loses their soul forever."
Take care everyone,
Samuel
I've posted a few times on Eric's board. Granted, I haven't taken the time to check out all the other posts and responses, but in Pastor McCormick's (AKA Theophilus) defense, he has taken his time to answer my questions, regardless of whether or not I plan on ever attending his church (or ever could, since I live in AZ). Does this sound cultish? I don’t think so. He is only trying to help others with what he himself has found valuable in his life.
Yes, maybe there are problems with his church's history and founder, but this isn't to say that he himself is corrupt like the rest are. I have found him to be very kind in his responses to me, not trying to minimize my concerns about the Bible. He has given some interesting facts, which I plan on researching some more…maybe you and everybody else here should do the same.
Seriously, Samuel…why don’t you move on? Yeah…Eric’s condemning of people to hell (like in the 3rd podcast) are a little harsh…not the style I would ever take if I were Christian, but I take it with a grain of salt…kind of like I take a lot of your harshness towards people who mean well (like your criticizing of Molly in your South Africa podcast – she may be blind about her faith, but that doesn’t give anybody the right to make fun of her name and stuff).
LOL Samuel,
I too have never heard of a Mormon named Molly. Jack either! I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but maybe they are converts.
The thing about cults is that you can't judge whether it is a cult or not by how nice the people are. I have no doubt that Eric and McCormick have nothing but good intentions. That doesn't mean what they are doing is right, but I personally believe that they want to help people. Eric wants to help people; Mormons want to help people. It seems like everyone's definition of "helping" people really means "making them believe what I believe". Samuel's helping of people is different because he has no hidden agenda; he is not trying to be a recruiter. He is not threatening anyone's salvation. He is simply trying to expose all cults and help people get out and recover. Whatever they believe is completely up to them. Samuel condemns the cult, but not the innocent members, which is how it should be.
It's easy to spot a cult... as long as you're not in it! Even if you are in a cult, it is easy to spot someone elses! As a Mormon, it was so obvious to me that the JW's were deceived. To JW's it's obvious that Mormons are deceived. It's crazy! Now, it's obvious to me that all religion is cultish to some degree! Beware of cults. They are everywhere.
Samuel,
I wouldn’t listen to your podcast if I didn’t get anything out of it. You bring up good points, and good issues (like you mentioned about the South Africa story – which I absolutely agree is scary to hear how zealous they are to get those sisters ‘moving the work forward’). I’m only saying that there are times when I have to take comments of yours with a grain of salt, like when you start attacking people personally.
Did Eric advertise his message board as a place where anybody and everybody can spout off whatever they like? No…he obviously has a goal in mind which is to help convert people to Christianity (not necessarily to Calvary Chapel). So if somebody doesn’t want to take an honest look at Christianity, why go there in the first place? Don’t they have better things to do? There are plenty of other places one can go to argue what they like. Eric set his rules, and it is his message board and his bandwidth, so why shouldn’t he have the right to enforce those rules?
Pastor Joe has invested a lot of his personal time responding to my questions and rebuttals. He’s doing what he feels his purpose is, just like you are doing what you feel yours is. If he feels that somebody doesn’t want to take an honest look at what he’s trying to convey, then why should he waste his time?
If I ever feel offended on Eric’s message board, maybe I’ll come tuck tail to you crying for help…but until then, I will continue exploring Christianity with an open mind. If I decide that Christianity isn’t for me, then I will have no reason to hang out there anymore.
I know where you are coming from, Samuel, I’ve had so many of the same feelings as you have had while coming to grips with my life-long Mormon beliefs. But if I assume that all religions are cults like you seem to have done (sorry if I am making faulty assumptions here), just because somebody feels passionately about what they believe, then I feel I will have made a big mistake.
Keep digging for the dirt…I like your passion, but also keep in mind that a lot of the people you are degrading have only the best of intentions (regardless of whether they are right or wrong). Of course, I agree that you should call them on things you don’t agree with, but why not more tastefully and respectfully?
~Brad
BTW, I've known several Mormons named Molly, and the stereotype has fit them all to a T! They probably WANT them to fit that stereotype, which is why they name them that in the first place! :o)
Hello Brad,
basically, I was kicked from Eric's homepage because I am homosexual.
The second reason was, I was asking rational questions.
Both is unacceptable to fundamentalists like Eric ("Bikini") Hoffman and Joe ("Chucky") McCormick.
Joe does only have discussions when the discussion has a certain form:
He preaches his personal gospel,
you answer by bowing your head and say "Yes".
You can see that also very clearly in the discussions of Scientist and the thread about aristotelian logic.
Joe, aka. Theophilus, does not only insult persons who don't share his point of view or threaten them with enforcing his policies, he does not make any substantial arguments, but demands that everyone answers him, because else he will kick them.
It is also interesting that he labels all people who disagree with him "Martin the homosexual".
That reminds me of Hitler who saw Communism as a dirty trick of the Jews: All enemies were concentrated in one group. Of course it is convenient to belief that every person who has a different opinion is homosexual, I mean, they have a different opinion from Joe (=God), so they must be sinning (rings a bell to Mormons!)
Anyway, I suppose you were sent by Bikiniboy and Chucky Smith to promote Calvary Chapel in this forum.
I wish you good luck, but you will not succeed, Brad.
Greets,
Martin.
Actually, I wasn't sent here...I had no idea of these posts until yesterday.
Check out these couple of podcasts when you have the chance:
A Christian and an Atheist
Bill Moyers on Belief & Reason
Both provide a balanced view on both sides in an intelligent discussion format. Both promote tolerance from the different perspectives.
Particularly check out the episodes from the first link on Hell. Since this is a difficult topic in general for Christians to deal with and since this topic has come up in this discussion.
Also, check out the discussion with Mary Gordon in the second link.
Both of these Christians (Norton in the 1st, and Mary Gordon in the 2nd) provide views of Christian belief that I can swallow. I like the fact that if I come to the conclusion that Christianity is what I believe, then I can adopt an intelligent and tolerant mindset like these two individuals have.
Just food for thought. Oh, and the homosexual discussion on the first link is a good one, too (since you brought it up, Martin).
The topic of this podcast/blog is not Christianity, Atheism or Homosexuality.
The main topic of this podcast are the problems of the Mormon Church.
The fact why Samuel created the subtopic "die-hard Christians" is that he sees in them the exact problematic behaviour he sees in Mormons.
And they are even worse than the Mormons.
In fact, if you are not a Mormon, you will not go to hell and lose yourself forever, but, if you lived a good life, you just get into a lesser degree heaven.
I think that is a wonderful concept. What it really says is the following:
"We Mormons claim to have the absolute truth. That is the optimum you can get. If you don't follow that optimum but live according to another Christian tradition, you don't reach the optimum, but nevertheless can live a good life. That's why you get into a lesser degree heaven."
On the other hand, die-hard Christians such as Eric Bikini Hoffman send everyone to hell which do not believe in Calvary Chapel.
Once in his podcast or on his blog, he stated that Catholicism is a sect, too. So besides 12.5 million Mormons, he also condemns 1 billion catholics.
So in contrast to Eric Hoffman, who sends everyone to hell, Mormonism can really be called a highly tolerant church.
So the topic is not Christianity or Atheism, but intolerance and hatered of Christian fundamentalist.
It would be nonsense if Samuel criticized the Mormon hierarchy for their behaviour, yet accepted the even MORE RADICAL and HATEFUL behaviour of his former friend Eric Bikini Hoffman.
That would be bigotry, but Samuel can in no way be called a bigot.
He has moral values, and he fights for them at all costs.
And thank you, I am not interested in people discussing about my homosexuality who have basically no clue and understanding of the topic. I mean, the catholic church clearly has a high competency when it comes to homosexuality, as their clergy is made up of many homosexuals, but she has no competency to deal with it, as all clergy members live a life of sexual suppression which is not healthy.
So, inspite of your intention to water down Eric's radicalness,
I would like you to take a stand now:
Do all people who do not believe in Calvary Chapel or orthodox Christianity lose their soul forever and burn in hell, as Eric Bikini Hoffman claims?
Please make a clear statement about that.
And if you disagree to this statement, explain to me why you can accept this "ultimate intolerance" as you seem to do.
Greets,
Martin
P.S.: Shuumitsu, that was really a great post, though I am not very familiar with Buddhism.
Martin,
Maybe the view of Hell being a place of "fire, brimstone, and eternal punishment" isn't the view of all Christians. I don't know what stand Calvary chapel takes. Check out that "Hell" podcast. I learned that such a view isn't always held.
Samuel the Utahnite,
Im sorry to see that first of all you have gone senile, and second of all if not, then "wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell"!!! (2Nephi 9:34). The only liar here is you, you cant even back up your false claims. This foolish rampage you are on will not succeed in the least, i pitty help you at judgement day, GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED!!!! P.S The church still is, has always been and will always be absolutely true!!!
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