Well, here it is, the long anticipated Mormon Hierarchy response to the Mountain Meadows Massacre Trailer, that I posted on January 24, 2007. Trust me, they have not disappointed and once again, speak in complete ignorance(since they haven't actually seen the film yet) and of course lie, by saying:
"From what we know of this movie, it is a fictional portrayal before, during and after the tragic events at Mountain Meadows Massacre in 1857. This film is a serious distortion of history."
Now, I find it absolutely fascinating and damning, that the "OFFICIAL" Gordon B. Hinckley response would be those words, considering Hinckley went to Mountain Meadows on Sept 11, 1999, for the dedication of a rebuilt monument to supposedly bring closure and healing, and said:
"No one can explain what happened in these meadows 142 years ago. We may speculate, but we do not know. We do not understand it. We cannot comprehend it. We can only say that the past is long since gone."
and
"All who knew firsthand about what occurred here are long since gone. Let the book of the past be closed. Let peace come into our hearts."
Once again, the Prophet Hinckley pretending to not have a clue about something, that he knows everything about. Amazing how little the Mormon "Prophet, Seer and Revelator" really professes to know sometimes, isn't it?
Hinckley also said:
"That which we have done here must never be construed as an acknowledgment of the part of the church of any complicity in the occurrences of that fateful day."
The line was inserted into his speech on the advice of attorneys for the Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."(The Salt Lake Tribune, March 14, 2000-by Christopher Smith)
So, to recap, now Hinckley's/Jesus' "official statement" for the world is: "from what we know of this movie, it is a fictional portrayal before, during and after the tragic events at Mountain Meadows Massacre in 1857. This film is a SERIOUS DISTORTION of history."
And in 1999, Hinckley's/Jesus' "official statement" was:
"No one can explain what happened in these meadows 142 years ago. We may speculate, but we do not know. We do not understand it. We cannot comprehend it. We can only say that the past is long since gone."
So, which is it Gordo and Jesus, as you need to get your story straight here: is the movie(which you haven't even seen yet) a "fictional portrayal" and "serious distortion of history", or something that you "can't explain", and "have no idea about what happened there 142 years ago", or are you "just speculating" again, but really "do not know?" Or is it that you "don't understand it", "cannot comprehend it" and only care that "the past is long since gone."
Well that "long since gone past" is back baby, right in your face, and it's gonna be on movie screens all around the USA and the world, showing people what really happened and the truth, which you have conveniently pretended not to have any idea about, until a movie comes out, that you now call "a serious distortion of history." Selective memory there Hinckley?
If you know the truth Hinckley(which he clearly does), now is the time to talk and confess your lies and sins!! You said you didn't know what happened, but now you suddenly do know exactly what did and didn't happen?
Yeah, I'll say it's a "serious distortion of history" going on here, but it doesn't sound like it's coming from the movie, rather Hinckley's mouth.
The movie comes out nationwide on May 4, 2007. My advice to all Mormons is go see it and learn some "Real Mormon Truth" for a change, because you'll never hear it from Hinckley and his gang or in Sunday School, Priesthood, Sacrament meeting, the temple, a mission, the MTC, seminary, institute, Firesides, Devotionals, LDS(dot)org, or any other church sanctioned magazine, manual, book or website.
It really is amazing and extremely ironic, when Hollywood is more honest than your "one and only true" church, and your "infallible Prophet that can't lead you astray", isn't it?
Here is the link to my original post, containing the trailer for "September Dawn."
Samuel the Utahnite
144 comments:
Note that the Church press release doesn't quote as Hinkley writing it.
But dude, what is it with you and Hinkley?? Did this old guy insult you or offend you personally in some way? Your post are full of anti-Hinkley items.
What did he do to you?
Anyone else would just move on and ignore the 96 year old kinda short widower.
?????????
Well, let's see, Gordon B. Hinckley is the self-proclaimed and cult sustained, Mormon cult Prophet, Seer and Revelator and I use those terms very loosely.
This man continues to lead a cult that destroys lives and families every single day. He is arrogant, smug and a damn liar, who does it all for profit and greed.
"Note that the Church press release doesn't quote as Hinckley writing it."
So, who wrote it, where did it come from and why wasn't Hinckley, the President and Prophet of the church made aware of a public statement and why wasn't it approved by him? It sounds like in your world of cognitive dissonance, there is real problem with who's running the show then.
Any "official statement" made by the Mormon church, is the official words of the Prophet, as if they came right out of his mouth, or he isn't the Prophet. It's funny how in your attempt to defend the cult, you minimize Hinckley's role, until the point he is irrelevant.
"Anyone else would just move on and ignore the 96 year old kinda short widower?????"
Yeah, well, I'm not "anyone else", am I?
Quit making excuses for your Mormon cult and cult leaders and admit the truth to yourself and the world; that it and they are frauds, that lie every chance they get, in order to keep their perfect little image, fantasy and facade, of being God's/Jesus' "one and only true cult" going.
Samuel the Utahnite
People who are not cult surivors do not understand how much of a betral it is to learn that everything you devoted your life to is a lie. Mormonism is not like other religions it is a whole lifesyle is is not something you get over quickly ,yoi can not just simply move on, when all your family and friends are still in the cult.
So which is it? "We don't know what happened," or "This film is a serious distortion of history."
How do they know it is a distortion of history if, according to Hinckley, "we don't know what happened?"
They know perfectly well what happened and they know perfectly well that their version of it is the one that is distorted. We all know the church is in the very bad habit of distorting their history all over the place.
I've got a question for you, Gordon. If, as you claim, the churches history is an open book, why don't you open your maximum security vault and let the whole world examine anything they want?
It's because your history is not an open book and because you know that your vault is so full of damning evidence against you, that you would lose every single member you have!
Damned if you do; damned if you don't. How did gods only true church get into such a predicament?
Ugh this just makes me sick. Yet again, we all know the TRUTH and yet the LDS CULT has to lie, brainwash and release propaganda to help keep its members ... and they are so brainwashed they will automatically assume that the church is "TRUE" and "being persecuted" and that this is 'anti-mormon material' set out to destroy their eternal souls forever ... yes, we are satan's minions apparently, intent on evildoing and destroying 'god's church' instead of TELLING THE TRUTH and trying to help people out of a huge LIE AND CULT THAT IS CONSUMING THEM ... sick, sick, sick. Typical Hinckley reaction, typical church reaction, typical mormon reaction ... WTF IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE??? OPEN YOUR EYES!!! THE CHURCH IS NOT TRUE!!! If you wanna discover the tip of the iceberg ... go see this movie...
Now that I've realized the truth about mormonism and have formally left the cult, this "official church response" doesn't surprise me one bit.
It still pisses me off, but it doesn't surprise me.
They'll do and say anything to keep the general membership in line. I'm so glad to be out.
To Samuel the Utahnite,
I have a theory about you and you Hinkley hating. Its this:
You served in argentina, they F'd your mind up, you come back states, marry in the temple but can't stop mastubating (hence all those post on mastubation). You where probably told off by Mickelsen, or told by him to stop playing with your dick, so hate him too.
Am I correct? or close dude?
I wrote that first post on your anti-hinkley stance.
You know you will never fully succeed in this endevour because your not attacking what keeps the church alive, and that is the presence of the spirit. To 'prove' the church false you'd need to somehow get the spirit to leave meetings. Only way to do that, I'm convinced, is to get everyone hooked on porn or, like you, masturbation. Entiende??
But I'll keep visiting your site every so often. Bet you wont put this up in this racist site?????
Jose, a real Lamanite.
To Samuel the Utahnite,
I have a theory about you and you Hinkley hating. Its this:
You served in argentina, they F'd your mind up, you come back states, marry in the temple but can't stop mastubating (hence all those post on mastubation). You where probably told off by Mickelsen, or told by him to stop playing with your dick, so hate him too.
Am I correct? or close dude?
I wrote that first post on your anti-hinkley stance.
You know you will never fully succeed in this endevour because your not attacking what keeps the church alive, and that is the presence of the spirit. To 'prove' the church false you'd need to somehow get the spirit to leave meetings. Only way to do that, I'm convinced, is to get everyone hooked on porn or, like you, masturbation. Entiende??
But I'll keep visiting your site every so often. Bet you wont put this up in this racist site?????
Jose, a real Lamanite.
Urgent,
I just heard that Anna Nicole Smith first married at, wait for it, 16!!!
Would that make her husband a pedophile or child rapist, like you accuse Joseph Smith of being???????????
No, off course not, neither was Joe a child rapist, just married a lot of women, clearly.
Jose, a real Lamanite.
Jose, a real Lamanite.
You are obviousley ILL and in need of psychiatric help , the way you are talking , and if you came near any of my sisters or female friends with that filthy polluted mind ( you probably believe is from God ) I'd Smack you one right in the nose because creeps like you deserve it.
Did Anne Nicole Smith marry a 37 year old claiming to be a prophet and that she had to do it in the name of God ??? You are a big time creep and thats polite .You should be locked up and kept away from women .There must be more SICK people like you in the mormon church and thats why It's important that it's exposed for what it is . A fraud !
A real Lamenite , you mean you didn't descend from Lehi or Laman ! hahahahah
Elder Joseph
Elder Joseph,
I don't know what it is lately, but(as you've probably seen), I've been encountering sicker, more mentally ill and more demented Mormons than ever. They are justifying Joseph Smith's pedophilia and child-rape, marrying other men's wives in the name of God, etc. It's amazing how Joe made all the women think it was "of a spiritual nature", before he took them into a private room and de-flowered them, much to their shock and horror.
Many of these Mormon nut-jobs over on YouTube, are obsessed with homosexuality and that I'm an "adulterous homo, a homosexual pedophile, that I'm having sex with homeless men's rectums, that I'm a fagot", etc, etc. I mean they have gone to a whole new level of shame and are the most offensive, despicable pieces of scum I've ever met in my life. Again, as they say these things, they think they are defending the Mormon cult...WTF?
These are dangerous, sick people and it's scary to know that they are not only walking the streets, but in the Mormon cult, possibly teaching primary, or boy scouts, etc.
It's just insane and it shows how they've completely lost their minds, but probably take the sacrament every Sunday and go to the temple. What's even sadder, is that I trash these guys for what they're saying and then other Mormons come along and DEFEND the Mormons that are saying these things. They don't have issues with what was said by the Mormon, but are angry with me, for taking offense at the other Mormon. I'm just shaking my head in disbelief.
So, maybe we're just uncovering the sick layer of Mormonism, where the sex freaks, pedophiles and homophobes hang out, because my videos and comments sure are getting to them and they are snapping, revealing their true, demented selves.
I think that "Jose, a real Lamanite" is one of these sick and demented people, but not as bad as those I've found in YouTube. Anyone that can defend Joe's sexual escapades with little girls, fully justified in the name of God, has a real screw loose and something is wrong with them mentally.
I also find it hilarious that he wants to compare Anna Nicole Smith's marriage in the 1980s, when she was 16, to Joseph Smith marrying little 14 year old girls and other men's wives in the 1830s and 1840s, in the name of God, as you mentioned.
I also seriously doubt that Anna Nicole's husband back then, claimed that a psychotic, homicidal angel was sent from a loving God, with a flaming sword to kill him, if she said no. I'm sure he also didn't offer her and her family Eternal Celestial glory, in exchange for Anna's vagina. I also doubt that her husband went on to marry 33 other women, including 14 year olds and other men's happily married wives, and then lied to the world, saying that he wasn't a polygamist.
I say "no way Jose", you are as far from reality with this example as anyone could possibly get. I think you just showed everyone Jose what type of dreamland you're living in and we welcome you back to reality anytime you want to come.
So, why is it exactly Jose, that you and so many others feel the extreme need to justify, excuse and defend your beloved Joe's sexually perverted ways? Is it simply because if you don't, and if what we are saying is true, the church isn't true? BINGO!!
Samuel
I agree with you Samuel 100% about what a lying piece of work old Gordo Wrinkley is. The quote on the news about how this film is a SERIOUS distortion popped right out at me. DISTORTION?
I saw the clip of Gordo Stinkley claiming nobody knew what happened. So if nobody knows, how the heck can the film be a distortion??
it is only a distortion because it was not produced by the propaganda department of the cult.
BTW: there is a large grey rectangle covering up a large part of your post. I see that from time to time on your posts. I hope you can fix it as I would like to read what is underneath.
BTW: this Jose the Lamanite is an idiot. He sounds like he needs some serious medication.
Hey--I sure miss your podcasts!!
Bonnie
Fellow humans(to be polite),
With Joe, I was merely point out that a famous 16 year old married in free america in the '80s, so Joe's marrying teens (many) 2 centruries ago should be surprising, nor considered rape. He was a polygamist, that's fact. But the way you interpret that is misleading. and even if Joe commited abultery and murdered someone it wouldn't affect the tru church, just like king David didn't affect the truth with his sins.
By the way you didn't answer the two most important points: 1st did they F'up your brain in your mission (I didn't go because first I never had the money like you, nor was inclined to ride a bike preaching all day, so my brain is OK now!) and 2nd, how will you fight the Spirit in meetings issue, or the Spirit reaching people's hearts when Hinkley speacks? or the other apostles?
Your masturbation is obvious from all the times it comes up in the bloggs, so is that a consequence of your missionary service? are all 'honorable mission' people masturbators as well. After all you are one of us who left, quit, changed life. But masturbation may be a common factor in both lives?
Any way we could exchange insults here, (and I'm not on medication yet) but will you answer both issues listed above?
Jose,
(real laminite due to race)
(Remember you can still repent and return to church one day)
Bonnie, thanks as always for your comments, support and contributions here in "Mormon Truth."
However, I was troubled by the comment you made about the "large grey rectangle covering up a large part of your post." You said that you "see that from time to time on my posts" and that you "hope I can fix it as you would like to read what is underneath."
I've never seen this and no one else has ever said this to me. Is anyone else having this problem? It looks perfectly fine on my computer and other computers where I've looked at my site and I'm a bit baffled by this.
Please let me know guys which posts you are seeing this on, or whenever it comes up, so that I can try to figure out what is wrong and what is causing it. This post looks perfectly fine to me and I've looked at the HTML and everything looks normal.
Anyway, I hope that this isn't a common problem, but thanks Bonnie for letting me know, you're awesome!!
Also, the last sexually perverted comment by Jose, doesn't even deserve a response, so I have nothing to say, as his comment speaks for itself and he just proved what a sick, perverted son of a bitch he really is and why he's such a big fan of horny Joe and his "adultery sex" with underage girls and other men's wives.
Take care everyone,
Samuel
Jose,
(real laminite due to race) ,You are of asian Origin and not Lamenite ( Lamenite is Joe Smiths Fantasy ) !
You are missing the point. King David screwing Uriahs his wife was wrong > Joseph Smiths screwing all those young teens was commanded of Jesus Christ according to your church . The Big point is the origin of the church is not from God but from a sick paedophile called Joseph Smith who saw a loophole in religion to con people and he did just that . He asked for his followers wives , How Ridiculous , would Jesus Christ really have him test his followers this way ? NO The prophets are the ones who are supposed to be tested not his followers .He even maried his followers wives whenthey were out on a mission ( sent by Joe Smith himself - It's absolutely laughable - how stupid can you get ) Joe Smith was a swindler, compulsive liar and cheat and all those who followed him suffered as a result . He was shot and killed in the same manner as Mafia type gangsters or drug dealer criminals get killed and corrupt business men who step on one toe too far .
He didn't die a martyrs death or go like a lamb to the slaughter , he was outnumbered in a gun battle where he killed two men trying to save his neck ! The missionaries are taught lies about this , when I reveal to them he had a gun in jail and shot two dead their perception suddenly changes , and if they think straight they might wonder how come they never knew this having been in church all their life ?
Same with his method of Translation .I'm sick of the Urim and Thumin power of God lies , HE PUT HIS HEAD IN HIS HAT WITH HIS OWN PEEPSTONE . This one rattles the misionaries too . A church of deceipt and fraud and lies from the very beginning .
Elder Joseph
Dear Elder Joseph,
The point is that even if Joseph Smith was this rapist it wouldn't affect the truth of the church because the truth is revealed from God to the individual and not from Joseph Smith to the individual -similar to what Jesus said to Peter about revelation. No one in my church worships or prays to Joseph Smith but everyone accepts that he was a polygamist and the list is freely available at the familysearch site run by the church.
If you prove that Joseph Smith was a child rapist you may affect the missionary work inside the US and Canada and a few other places, and may affect Romney's chances, but nothing else.
People who believe in the church do so after a spiritual experience that makes one stand up and say 'something else is here that I've never felt before anywhere else'.
And I'm of american origin, not Asian, and my people where here long before your people. If I call myself a laminate now, so what? I have the right to do so and to adopt the name Joseph Smith gave some of our people(not all)
Jose.
Listnen, lets forget the differences of opinions.
Just go to http://www.josephsmith.net/portal/site/JosephSmith
and if you 'feel' something go and get baptized. If you don't, then stay with your current church.
Ok?
Jose.
Hey Jose, if you can cut out the "I'm a huge masturbator and that's why I left the church" bullshit, we'll be able to get along much better.
That's not the best approach if you actually want me to take you seriously and answer your legitimate questions. I see that you've moved in that direction, so congrats on advancing your mentality.
Also, the reason I bring up masturbation so much, is because kids have actually killed themselves over it(or at least gone through hell and beat themselves up over it), after meeting with the Bishop(Kip Eliason-Google him). Kimball said that it leads to the "gross sin of homosexuality" and I was asked in every mission interview(not to mention growing up) I ever had(along with my companions), first question, "Do you masturbate Elder?" Of course if our baptism numbers weren't high enough, either for us or the zone or district or mission, it was because we were "MASTURBATORS."
So, I'm obsessed with they are obsessed with, because they are closet sex freaks and perverts!! My mission president must have gotten off on that question, or it turned him on or something. I'm trying to point out to others that masturbation is not a big deal and nothing to get depressed over or God forbid, kill yourself over. It is Mormonism that makes masturbation this awful, almost unforgivable sin.
I do not believe, that it is any business of the Goddamn Bishop, to pull in a 10-12(or a 21, 35, 40 year old man) year old boy or girl into their private office, behind closed doors and ask them "if they masturbate" and "look at porno" or "have dirty thoughts."
If you or I tried that in our neighborhoods, we'd both be sitting in jail right now. That's called "sexually explicit chat with a minor" and why we have groups like "perverted justice" and Dateline, to catch these damn predators, that prey on the youth.
Some of these Bishops and Stake Presidents have turned out to be PEDOPHILES like Joe and it's a horrific practice that must be exposed to the world, which I'm doing. Would you Jose, want your young son or daughter pulled into to a private office, with a closed door, by a pedophile, and then asked personal, private sexual questions? I would hope not!!
I'll be leaving an honest, sincere answer to your other questions after I get done helping someone that Emailed me tonight, that really needs some advice and help, since leaving the church will mean not having a family anymore and loss of all financial support for college. They are absolutely torn to pieces and crying their eyes out and depressed, but Of course, you wouldn't understand this Jose!!
This is the life of an ex-Mormon, that doesn't want to lose their family, but can't pretend anymore. Their Email broke my heart and reminded me why I'm doing what I'm doing. There are just too many people out there right now that are going through what this Emailer is and they need help folks.
Oh yeah, one more thing; going to that "official" website on Joseph Smith won't do anyone any good, since it is all lies and half-truths. Not one mention of his polygamous wives, multiple versions of the first vision, treasure hunting, peep stones, putting his head in a hat to translate the BOM, his bank failure and defrauding of the whole town, etc, etc, etc.
That's the problem with those "official church sources"; they are 100% unreliable and full of lies, distortions and half-truths. I guess if I wanted to know the truth about the Moonies, I'd go ask Mr. Moonie, right? Yeah, he'd never lie to try and suck me into his cult, right?
Samuel
Wow Samuel,
Where does that happen? that Bishops ask you straight out like that. If it does its just plain wrong -having being a branch president which is just a small ward, I strongly oppose that type of searching interview with youth or kids, its illegal; if the kids ask about that or admit to it to confess its different; I told them to stop because I could stop as a kid but it isn't that bad and I never stopped the sacrament to the 3 kids that admitted to it-if my memory is correct its 3)
But you are speaking about a church that is somewhat alien to me at least. If mission presidents behave like that then you have the right to attack them, but like I said that's a foreign church to what I know of. And if it is true about the person leaving the church and loss of family support and college, then I'd support you in that part. My older brother is a perpetually inactive man since his mid twenties but I haven't alienated him, I have stopped asking about church because its tedious now although once or twice a year or so I'll bring it up.
Remember that there was a stake president in Montana(I think) that was a criminal going after a 14year old, but I've never met a criminal stake president myself -I have disagreed with some to the point of disliking them personally but not to the extent that you talk about.
Anyway, you'd better try to help that person you speak of, again that is not the church that I know -actually most families that I know of are incomplete in the celestial sense. Good luck with that (and your correct that I don't understand the loss of financial support -is it an ex missionary losing BYU somehow?)
Talk to you later.
I've googled Kip and obviously its wrong. Masturbation isn't that bad, we all go through it but need to overcome it for the Spirits guidance and company. But I stress that it isn't that bad, like adultery is, and very bad if its someone in authority like that montana stake president.
I've gone to your 'My YouTube Videos' link but it has:
"This user account is suspended"
on its top banner?
Also, one of the above videos on this blog entry were deleted!
Is there some TBM sitting at Youtube??
An Address to all Believing Mormons and Mormon Dissenters..... and no lying from me , unlike Joseph Smith !
The good news is Truth can be readily available on the internet . Just as the printing press ended the Catholic Church's Undeserved Authority and ecclesiastical abuse , The same fate will come upon the LDS church and it will have to reform .
No more defending that Blacks/Priesthhod ban was of God and his order of things but instead acknowledge it was simply an ASS teaching originating with the dangerous idiot called Brigham Young.Although the fundamentals of it are in the Book Of Mormon and Pearl Of Great Price .
The Shakers were already at work in Britain to end the slave trade in 1783 , Joined by Evangelical William Wilberfoce it was finally abolished approx 60 years before Brigham Young uttered his prophet inspired council on slavery and said that it was a divine institution not to be abolished until the curse on Cain was lifted. Who was God working through ? Certainly not Brigham Young , he was behind the times just like the LDS church was the last to follow the influence of Martin Luther King .
Polygamy will have to be knocked on the head . Gordon Hinckley says anyone practicing polygamy will be excommunicated .But what about A mormon man sealing his second wife in the Temple ( after the first one has died ) .In the resurrection he expects to call up two wives ?? Thats polygamy in the Heavens and what about the first wife's so called permission ? This Church is still a polygamous church .Monogomy is not God's order according to them .
I look forward to the church figures coming down . I can't stand the apostles and prophets of this church gloating and full of their own righteousness while all the time lying and misleading us all about the teachings and true origins of the church.
Elder Joseph
PS maybe their is a God after all , working through all the honest people who have dignity and integrity to speak out .
To be honest, Samuel, I am glad your videos will be posted elsewhere. I never have liked YouTube. The videos take forever to load, and keep stopping so I have to hit the refresh button again and again and again before the whole video is ready to watch.
Funny, if they are so bold in stating that you can never stop their work, why do they even bother to debate? Why do they even bother to remove your videos? Why do they go to all the trouble to complain?
Maybe we should put together a petition to the federal govt to remove the churches tax exempt status. Let's make our voices heard and let them know why the church does not deserve it. Let's show them that the church is very much involved in politics. Unless the church has 7 billion dollars a year in operating expenses, then they are definitely pulling in a profit! Non-profit my ass!!! 10% of the income of four million faithful tithe payers is a hell of a lot of money, not to mention their businesses, stocks, malls, hotels, etc.
Samuel
If they got you tube to cancell your acount you must be succesful enought to scare them. Congrats
Yes, congrats on pissing off the high hierarchy part-I personnally dislike several of these guys after meeting them in stake conference meetings and for what they do to free speach. They do teach that the free speach aspects of the constitution is God inspired by there is no free speach when one wishes to question or investigate problems within the church, and that's only problems not doctrinal differences or questions. And thats from Bishops up, all of them. You just obey the bosses view points.
I resort to using (a few) false names here because of the fear of ending up in the strengthening the members committee files or having anotations added to my membership record on the headquarters side (if your interested all membership records since the introduction of the unified system have the standard details on the ward/stake side but everything else on the church HQ side, including every address you ever had, every telephone number, every little frickin detail, and dates of post made to 'apostate' sites like this as well). When we consider a bishop application, and fill in the form, for example, we get a print out of this but of the parts available to stakes which includes all addresses lived at but not things like missionary presidents report or any press declaration or interview dates -that's all just GA level clearance to view. I'm currently stake clark and wish to remain so , so please excuse my use of charlie/jose, for now? But I am a 'real laminite'.
I've read up on the Kip story and would disagree that only masturbation sent him tragiclly to suicide although it may have being the trigger. Suicide is much more complex than that. But that's another issue.
I would like you to answer my questions on surviving a 2 year mission as a non-believer (which you have the right to be) when you have the time, maybe after fixing up YouTube part (I'd liked to see those videos). I have a son almost reaching missionary age now and honestly wonder if its worth the time and money since, as you now, us laminites are a bit disadvantaged in this church until we become 'white and delightsome'. I worry about my boy who is very 'laminitish' being amongst the utah white missionaries.
Jose (for now) real laminite.
By the way, what TBM?
And 'dear' Elder Joseph:
Truth is available, all 'truth' surely comes from the God of truth -not from the Internet.
But I ask you, is reason how God communicates truth to men? or is it by the Holy Ghost and answers to prayer and inspiration via that said ghost?
I hold that it is the latter.
And yes, polygomy is a celestial law but banned now today. If that difficult to grasp? So men do get sealed to 2nd wife, but we really don't know how it actually all works in heaven since we haven't being there. And just for the record, Jose Smith and Brigham Young and many more where polygamists, Get over it! We all accept that. And Jose Smith marrying 14 year olds wasn't illegal in frontier america, nor out of the norm. But Brigham Young did stop a 72 man marrying a 12 and 13 olds in plural marriage though. Its accepted, get over it!
Anything else?
Jose,
Jose,
You said Truth comes from God ? So why is the church sending out missionaries with the Book Of Mormon and spoon feeding misleading lying tales about Joseph Smith and how the book came into being . Mormon coverts don't get the answer from God , they get it from reading a book having been misled by its content and origin . Thats why many leave the church when they find out. If God answered direct he could just tell us whats what without having to send out a PR backed Sales led missionary force ( just gullible kids who know nothing about the real origin of the book of mormon ).
God gave us intelligence and thats how we discern . Lying never brought truth to anyone . The church has a History of lying and it continues to do so to this day .If it told the tuth ...... no one would join .They are just preying on ignorance and peoples vulnerability.I've seen myself the many suckers who join.
You say poligamy is banned today ? then say that sealing a second wife is a mystery on how it works . What is the mystery , its the belief of a man having more than one wife is being practised . You are sounding more and more like a typical Brain dead Mormon who says " Joseph never lied but sometimes didn't tell the truth thats all" or the other one is " There were no less valiants in the pre-existence , BUT some were more valiant than others " . It's amazing how peoples capacity to think straight has been eroded by this church.
And I'm supposed to have high esteem Brigham Young because he stopped a 72 year old man marying a 12 and 13 year old . You are so ridiculous , the lengths you are going to portray these sick and twisted so called men of God . Its a disgrace . would you give your 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 year old daughter to a man of 72 in the name of God for salvation ! How Sad of you to even try portraying Brigham Young as some kind of a moral campaigner .
Elder Joseph
Hey Elder Joseph, Jose and everyone else,
I just wanted to point out that polygamy lives on in the Mormon church with men being married to multiple "LIVING WOMEN", not just one living and the rest deceased, like in the case of the Mormon Apostle Dallin H. Oaks.
Just like the podcast I did with Joy pointed out, where her dad is currently sealed, in the "temple of Jesus Christ", to two living women, which was and had to be approved by Hinckley and the First Presidency.
For the reference to the exact wording in the Bishop's Handbook of Instructions regarding this issue, which Jose should be able to verify firsthand; just go to my Mormon Truth Podcast Blog and the first item you'll see is Podcast #20 and the post with the quotes needed to verify this.
That's all for now, as I just wanted everyone to be "crystal clear" on this issue, so that there wasn't any confusion.
When Hinckley states to Larry King that "Polygamy isn't doctrinal"...well gee, I wonder how he can say that when he condones it and approves of it all the time and knows of these polygamous marriages happening in the temples, since he's the big man signing off on them.
Of course, Hinckley is a good, honest man, who would never lie, cover-up, deceive or tell half-truths, because after all, he is God's only mouthpiece on earth, the only man with authority to speak for God and a "Prophet, Seer and Revelator" that "God would remove if he ever tried to lie or lead the Saints astray"....NOT!!
Jose, your response is coming this evening!!
Samuel
And just to confuse you more, with women, doctrine is that they can be sealed to only one man in life, but when dead they are sealed by proxy in genealogical work to ALL the husbands she was legally married to during her life time. (ie to possibly many husbands if she as a widow or divorced remarried)
Didn't know about that? Well then check CURRENT and ACTUAL doctrines first to fight the good fight against mormon inc, instead of just repeating over and over the old Joseph Smith or Brigham Young stories.
Jose.
Samuel,
The 'Uncensored Mormon Discussion Board' link is also down.
Also when I try to post a comment I have to do it twice to get it in, that is enter the Work verification 2 times every time, ????? Maybe their into your site too like youtube problem I brought up.
Jose.
I posted this comment in the last post and it has not received any response so I am re-posting it here.
Jose said, "Like say for arguments sake that Jose Smith was a rapists and stole from the members their wives, OK? that doesn't actually change anything with regard to the church"
Jose,
Frankly, I'm blown away by your pathetic defense of Joseph Smith. Are you basically saying that it doesn't matter if he was a liar, conman, convicted felon, adulturer, rapist, as long as you can feel the spirit? Give me a damn break! It changes everything! Does a true prophet of god go around committing crimes and all manners of whoredoms? If you dare say 'yes' then you are truly delusional.
Since you're so big into the spirit thing, let me put it to you simply. The spirit you feel is your own damn emotions. Samuel felt the spirit on his mission as did I. Since the church knows that your own feelings are the one and only thing that no one can change or take away from you, it is the thing they use to convince people of their "truth".
Have you ever felt the spirit in a movie or when hearing a beautiful piece of music, or both together? One of the most liberating things for me was the discovery that the spirit exists outside of the Mormon church. Ever since leaving the church and having the spirit supposidely withdrawn from me, surprisingly enough, I have still felt it. Why? Because it is a universal feeling and the patent is not owned by the Mormon church!!!
People in other churches have the same feelings and experiences as Mormons do. The only difference is that other churches do not make this a central theme in their pitch. Other churches focus on Jesus, the Bible. While the Mormons do also, their ultimate source of truth is that tingly feeling in your stomach.
I hate to break it to you, but a true belief in something false is a false belief. Let's use some simple logic here. What is more likely, that Joseph Smith was visited by a bunch of dudes who traveled billions of miles through space (without a spaceship) from Kolob, or that good ol' Joe made the whole thing up? If you think about it like that, it basically turns Christianity in general upside down. All of it is nothing but a huge lie.
Hope this helped answer some of your questions about denying the spirit. By the way, I have the same problem. I usually have to enter the word verification two times as well.
"Are you basically saying that it doesn't matter if he was a liar, conman, convicted felon, adulturer, rapist, as long as you can feel the spirit?" YES. YES and YES AGAIN.
Everything revealed comes from God not Joseph Smith, he is just the medium or vesel or whatever you want to call him. But I still don't believe that he was a liar, conman, rapist etc. But to make a point I compared him to king David and his sins which didn't stop God's church, or Jonah or even that Emanuel guy that kidnapped the 14yearold girl or any other profet gone bad. And who knows maybe pt Hunter left yearly because of some problem he had with doctrine? only God would know that. Our belief is not based on any factual event from the 1800's but from a spiritual experience which one has, which tells one that God is there and more, which you obviously never felt and probably never will.
"The spirit you feel is your own damn emotions" Bullshit!!! you then go one to say "Samuel felt the spirit on his mission as did I."&"me, surprisingly enough, I have still felt it." Big contradictions there pal.
But yes, the Spirit can be felt outside the mormon church, as did Cristobal Colon (his real name) and even Reagan after praying about communism and many more. Why not seak that same Spirit to ask if there is a Celestial Kingdom? eternal marriage? heck, polygamus marriage? Why don't you? Because you are blinded into just hating everything mormon and looking for their downfall. Like I said before, Go Shopping!! And you shouldn't have gone on a mission, what a waste of time and effort and probably your parents money. Hopefully the church will figure out a way to stop guys like you from serving at all. God, obviously loves everyone and accepts all who go to him and offer missionary service or any other service. His a good parent, but I'm not your parent. I say shame on you for even considering serving a mission and now fighting against the church and especially 'the Spirit' part.
By the way Jesus last instructions where to seek that 'other conforter' ie Spirit!! case closed.
Jose.
And Samuel,
I think there is an problem in understanding the terms here, the use of the term 'Sealing'. I find that a lot in the church also with people comparing sealing to marriage and annulment to a temple divorce. And I've prepared lots of applications for annulment/clearances as a stake clerk. You said: "a man and sealed(married spiritually) to two LIVING WOMEN at the same time, if you are legally, civilly divorced from the others" That's correct because a man (or woman) can only be married to one person at a time as I stated and that's not "is blatantly false and wrong and the Bishop's handbook states the opposite of your remark". Not correct! You should study the chapter 8 on 'Temples and Marriage' in the chi99.
I am not allowed to marry two women at the same time, ie polygamy, but if I marry one and then divorce and can re-marry and ask for a clearance to have that second marriage 'sealed'. But maybe we should go back to the actual wording used in the temple ceremony for marriages, you should remember that one is 'married for time and all eternity' and then there is a sealing of that marriage. ie 'sealing' does not mean 'marriage' but more like stamp of approval or similar. If I divorce, then the 'married for time' is broken and obviously all that comes after is broken. But also in the ceremony there's the part of the new and everlasting covenant, which is also 'sealed' and that is simply entering a new order of the priesthood. But this is all to complex really. Maybe you could get a recording of the marriage ceremony and, with section 132, see that it isn't a case of 'sealing' = 'marriage' or 'spiritual marriage'
Jose
And one question?
with: "like in the case of the Mormon Apostle Dallin H. Oaks" what do you mean? I only know that his first wife died so he then remarried?? or is it different in Utah?? So did Nelson and Perry remarried but note that Scott never has nor has Hinkley or Haight.
Jose.
Jose
The message the missionaries bring is false,They are taught a BOGUS version of events and pretend they care for you. They just prey on weak lonely people with this PLASTIC ARTIFICIAL MTC inspired Love . People then mistake their Euphoric emotion based on this as confirmation of the spirit based on these false facts and love and concern from the missionaries . I know what they teach , I have them weekly , but now I have turned the cards round and I teach them and they are absolutely staggered at what they don't know and exactly what happened .The Joseph Smith Head in A Hat is a classic one I like to show them .
If they presented all the facts at the beginning then no one would have any kind of spiritual feeling but lnstead feel a total disgust at the church's origins and leaders .People join on limited knowledge and are then conditioned into believing anything ridiculous or outrageous if they are to weak to think for themselves . One ridicluous statement I heard from our Stake Patriarch is If you follow the Prophet and he's wrong , you'll still be blessed ?? What utter Bullshit . If you follow the prophet and he's wrong you are nothing but a fool and a big one at that . Look at all the foolish women who were gullible enough to believe Joseph Smith's secret marrying revelation. Some were clever enough to rebuke him thankfully.
The prophets who have run this church are an embarrassment to Jesus Christ and nothing else. The arrogance of their teachings only to back track many years later shows their total lack of any authority or connection to any divine being .
When you finally see through the facade, then you too will realise that your confirmation of the truth of this religion is just an emotion in your own mind .
And for you to say to ex mormons who have served missions and given years of their life to the church that they never felt the spirit in the first place is sheer arrogance and shows exactly what kind of people the church's indoctrination really churns out !
To refer to young girls and say that as soon as they bled YES they were married off to the old men and you believe they are men of God is pretty disgusting . I feel sorry for you.
Elder Joseph
"If I divorce, then the 'married for time' is broken and obviously all that comes after is broken."
So Jose, you're obviously stating that the temple marriage/sealing is automatically null and void if someone gets divorced civilly? Is that why they require a "SPECIAL CLEARANCE" from the First Presidency, to be sealed to another living women in the temple and why people have to actually file and get special approvals for "temple divorces?"
Either I misunderstood your comment, you didn't express yourself correctly or you don't know what you're talking about. I've read the entire Bishop's manual and posted from the section you mention and I know exactly what it says.
If the "temple sealing" was automatically broken upon a civil divorce, there would be no further need for "special clearances" or "letters" from the other divorced spouse, giving approval for the other spouse to get sealed again, etc.
Also, in the case of women(since they can only be sealed to one living man, unlike the men's modern-day, temple polygamy), they CANNOT EVER be "SEALED" again in the temple until they get "special clearance" from the FIRST PRESIDENCY and a complete cancellation of their first sealing. Even if it was 5 years ago, they make the couple drudge up the past, discuss again in detail what happened, what led to the divorce, etc.
If none of this really mattered Jose, and it was "automatic" as you say; they wouldn't have to do these things and write letters and fill out all that paperwork, would they? I know it's all a bunch of crap anyway and there is no "special meeting" of the First Presidency to decide this stuff at all, as it's just the same "form letter" they send to everybody in the end.(I've personally seen the letters)
Take care Jose and I have an audio response to your other "questions" and the things you've said, that I'll be posting momentarily. Oh, and one more thing Jose; all of the things you mentioned above, that I should be discussing about the church; I’ve discussed at length, multiple times in multiple places, but you’re the new kid on the block of “Mormon Truth”, so I wouldn’t expect you to know all of that.
Oh yeah, one more sad thing and fact Jose; a lot of the child-brides that Joseph married, probably weren't even "bleeding yet" and I gave you the reference to the page that discusses that. I second Elder Joseph in saying that you are pretty disgusting in the way you express yourself and I too feel sorry for you.
It appears that to you Jose, women are just a "piece of meat" and a "sex toy" to "have sex with?" It sounds like you might be experiencing some of the cultural aspects of where you live, which is probably that men rule the women, no questions asked and should be submissive and obey their husbands? Hey, that sounds like the pre-1990 temple ceremony too, doesn't it?
Maybe you've just helped us understand why you don't really care if Joseph Smith was an adulterer, who had sex with other men's wives and that had sex with little girls, and was a pedophile/child rapist, all in the name of God.
Samuel
My Audio Response To Jose!!
You can either download this directly to your hard-drive or just click on it and it will download automatically for you to listen to. I will also be posting this response to Jose later tonight on my Mormon Truth Uncensored podcast, where you'll be able to download it through iTunes or listen to it on the player, on my Mormon Truth Uncensored blog.
Happy Valentines day!!
Samuel
By the way, Samuel, it's great to hear your voice again! It's been a long time.
Dear Ray:
"I've felt the spirit in an "R" rated movie" That BS and there's just no hope for you!
I'm not saying that girls 'bleed' and can be married. I said that in past centruries that was happening in all societies, not only Joseph Smiths one. But I did state that I don't agree with that and 14 year olds shouldn't marry, they should be in school. End of story.
And Samuel:
You have misunderstood the 'sealing' issue. I put together about 3 ot 4 applications per year. That means chasing the letters for people, making sure that the issues are addressed correctly(other wise the committee in Salt Lake just sends it all back to correct), filling in the form. And it is a form letter which 1st presidency sends out allowing a cancellation/clearance but noting that ultimate judgement is the Lords and not theirs.
The problem comes from understanding what the word 'sealing' means and it is not equivalent to marriage. But more of a stamp of approval from God on the marriage. It follows that if the marriage is not working or exist anymore, that stamp of approval doesn't mean (much although it is still present) the "depending on their faithfulness" part of chapter 8.
But that you understand something else about it doesn't suprise me because a lot of faithfull members ask why an application is returned due to the bishops letter or something, when the couple was divorced 20 years ago, as example. Few in church fully understand what marriage in the temple means and implies. And I suspect that it is all more to check up on who divorces and why, was there abuse or sins etc? But most marriage matters are handled by members of the twelve now due to large numbers, first presidency does re-instatments involving child abuse and those more serious matters.
I'll download that file latter on.
Take care,
Jose.
Jose,
You just don't get it, do you? After reading my comments, Elder Joseph, Samuel and his audio, you are still clueless as to what the spirit is. All I can say is that if you don't understand it by now, then you never will. I can only hope I'm wrong.
"Hopefully the church will figure out a way to stop guys like you from serving at all." Why don't they just use their power of discernment and predict the future of which missionaries will eventually leave the church? How about a little heads up from the man upstairs? That should be no biggie for someone who walks and talks with god. Dude, it's not like we all served because we were secretly plotting to overthrow the church someday. Obviously you don't listen very well. We were all faithful, true believers who went on a mission because at that time we believed with all our hearts that it was what God wanted us to do. I went in spite of the fact that my father had left the church a few years earlier and was actually trying to convince me not to go.
So for you to sit there and tell us that we never should have served because we are so loathsome and evil is nothing more than a statement of pure ignorance on your part. You are drowning in the Mormon way of thinking. When Samuel says "The truth will set you free", it is so very true. We all have been where you are now and we can all tell you that once you remove the Mormon box off your head, the most liberating thing in the world is your ability to think for yourself. You can let go of dogma and superstition.
God doesn't give a shit if I shop on Sunday!
I won't burn in hell if I offend my underwear (garments)!
I won't burn in a great fire if I don't pay my tithing!
Instead of clamering around in darkness and confusion, as the church has carefully led you to believe, we enjoy lives that are full of meaning. Many of us have had to sacrifice relationships, jobs, homes, etc to find that freedom. But it's worth it! I am in school, and without the aid of the "spirit" I have pulled of nearly straight A's. Amazing huh? That it is actually possible to function without the precious church. My life has only improved since I found the truth.
Hoping that someday you and millions of others will be able to "free your mind" (Morpheus). You haven't seen the Matrix have you? It's rated R and is possibly one of the best movies ever made. You will learn more from watching it one time then you will from going to the temple 1000 times!
Best of luck to you, Jose.
First of all, I didn't know about September Dawn until I saw information about it on your blog... that's kewl! I don't think I'll have any luck seeing it out here in Mormon Town, but I'll see what I can do. It looks very interesting...
Second of all... This is something I would like to say to some of the comments I have seen on various posts, podcasts, and reviews. I get a little annoyed at the fallacitic, hypocritical BS that is said in some of these comments from readers. I'm sorry for having to put it that way. On one hand, I can understand how it might hurt to have your religion/beleif system/feelings/whatever challenged... but stop. If you have something to say, back it up with some useful information so that we might be "enlightened", if you want to look at it that way.
This is all here for you to see. Instead of aiding us in the search for truth and answers, I see a lot of beating-around-the-bush, flaming, etc. Open your mind, chill out, and provide us with some useful information.
Happy Valentines Day!
Misfit Marie
'Misfit' Marie, how appropriate.
And Ray, you still just don't get it! The Spirit and spiritual events are supernatural, not just 'emotions' or fuzzy feeling. But you don't see it and call it foolishness as well.
As to you serving a mission, I still say shame on you. You're probabably white(true?) middle class, had it all from the start, taught what the truth is, probably got the church to pay your tuition at BYU, and now you do this? You bite the hand that fed you.
You could just stop believing and go fishing (or shopping) but no, you want to fight and go to war against the church of your youth? I don't believe in catholism anymore but I'm not at war against them. I even help out when I can.
I haven't heard the audio yet, will do now, but I was honestly hoping to understand you White Utah boys and why you fell away. Thought that maybe they treated you bad in your mission or you couldn't adapt to returning home and do this instead of blowing your brains out like some others returned missionaries do. But no, you do it just because you hate the church and God and then have the nerve to call that hatred 'freedom of thought'?
Unfortunately God doesn't reject anyone -as loving parents don't- even you, who eventually turned against him. You should've realised this just from Judas story -or Laman- but you find some way to twist things. And what your asking for in that "predict the future of which missionaries..." is akin to asking for a sign. Surely you're hooked on porn, right? But God would still accept you now, but I wouldn't.
I think I was closer to the truth in that first message: you can't stop masturbating, F'd up your mind on the mission field.....etc etc.
True??
Jose.
Jose-
I'm sorry you feel like you have to behave like this to prove a point... Judging, false accusations, whatever. If you were truly here to "understand you WHITE BOYS ?? and why you fell away" you would be taking a much different approach. You see, there is a difference between UNDERSTANDING and AGREEING. There's also a difference between AGREEING and TAKING ACTION.
"I think I was closer to the truth in that first message: you can't stop masturbating, F'd up your mind on the mission field.....etc etc." - I think enough has been said in my past post or two.
Really... I suppose I should just stop wasting my time trying to talk to people who are incapable of carrying on an intelligent/decent conversation supplied with helpful information and the right attitude. No more of this stereotypical, hypocritical BS (Basically what I said above).
GOD LOVES YOU + I DO TOO!
Misfit Marie
Jose ,
You are pathetic .If this is what the church has turned you into then maybe I should quit soon as possible lest I become so Judgemental and know it all like you .Its ridiculous . I think it's people like you that put any one decent right off the church . You should hand your temple recommend back at once if you have ever been worthy in the first place , which I doubt. You are definately not worthy .In fact You are FAKE ! The House Of The Lord doesn't want you in there and the spirit people certainly don't want You helping them. So stay away .
So this is what Mormonism churns out , people like you .
Elder Joseph
Hey Jose, you're nothing but a fucking racist, adultery and pedophilia defender and a perverted, "F'd in the head" idiot. You're not only a horrible example of a Mormon, but a horrible example of a human being and nobody that I want to be associated with. And you pretend to be a good Mormon/Christian?
Others can deal with you and respond however they want or not, but I'm done and will no longer waste my time on such a piece of human trash!! Those of us here do not deserve the unwarranted abuse and slander, that you are dishing out.
Now, go find some porno and masturbate, since that's all you can talk about or accuse us ex-Mormons of and then go back to your pathetic cult, bow you head to Papa and say yes daddy, while wearing your "magic underwear!!" Oh yeah and be sure to lie in your next temple recommend interview, which you'll have to do, in order to renew it and get back into Joe's little house of horrors.
It's good to see yet another fruit of Mormonism, to remind all of us ex-Mormons of the cult we left and why we left. People like Jose is the perfect example of what happens to any Mormon cult member who learns the truth and then decides to defend, justify and rationalize the horrors of true Mormon history, doctrines and teachings. They have no morals, no values and no conscience. They barely qualify for "human being" status in my book.
I have nothing more to say to you than that Jose and I'm done.
Samuel
Finally Got my own blogger account and site Latterdaylies.blogspot.com
I'm looking forward to creating something on there .Honesty will be Paramaount. Something I could teach the LDS church prophets and apostles about.
I could easily pick on JW's , Catholics etc but I've chosen Mormonism as it affects me directly although I haven't any cause for anger thankfully .I haven't been in it.
I learnt my lesson from JW's about Deception and Lying from church leaders and it was an eye opener. Made me angry for a while .
We all live and learn I guess .
I recommend the John Dehlin Richard Bushman Interview if any Mormons want to know the real version of events if they dare . Just google for it .
Elder Joseph
Samuel: I just listened to the mp3, it covers a lot. But main points:
Let me start by saying that I added that 'racist' comment just to make sure my post went up, because I didn't know your site and if you respect free speech (which the church does not!) You're not racist obviously after the martin luther king post. (And I wasn't feeling the spirit when I did that or when I insulted you, maybe I'll repent someday).
The story of Mickelsen is very interesting and entertaining, as are all the mission stories. And in LA -where I lived when baptized- no one gets the church to pay for their mission. But maybe Mickelsen will soon be a Elder Lee? Who knows.
But as to Hinkley: I don't see him the way you saw him on your mission. When Hinkley talks in Conference, sometimes I "feel" (or wrong word, maybe Spirit confirms?) a message there for me. But I don't see him in awe; he is just a 96 year old and probably very sick now about to die. But I like that fact that he doesn't walk with Jesus and see him always. I prefer the story of Joseph Smith in a dream to Brigham saying to seek the Spirit(remember?) This is the main way -through dreams- that I find answers from God (not when I throwing insults to you or Ray!!!) And I'm not 'naive' because, like I said, he is probably very ill now and the others approve everything.
As to the Spirit issue: I laughed when you said the kids "they don't know shit". Funny. I know that happens a lot.
After all you said, I see that you never had that amazing, powerful, supernatural, event, that is the Spirit. You haven't received a testimony at all, never! It is very, physically, external to one's souls and can be seen as a light with ones eyes. Not just feeling, peace and joy: the Holy Ghost is very different. I read and felt insulted by the descriptions of 'dirty' people that my people became etc, in the BoM (as Blacks would be insulted by Brigham Young’s words) but the testimony from the Spirit was still there, separate to that. But you have every right to not believe this. I can accept that Joe Smith was screwing some 14 year old plural wife, because he did! I just see that different to you as I pointed out in previous post. And my mother did marry at 14, almost 15, and she had a long successful marriage.
Now allow me to let you in on a little secret. As a branch president I sat up the top, looked at the members, and could 'see' the members who where in serious sin, latter proved to be true through confessions: adultery one case, another who couldn't shake wine, YSA who where into porn but the kids who probably all masturbated they didn't stand out. Only adults did and this is the light that Mickelsen was probably talking about (lake of it in case of sinners)
In conclusion, after listening to you talk about your mission, I do think it affected you badly (In colloquial terms, it F'd up your brain!). You need counseling to 'get over' your mission and its effects. Honestly I felt like I was listening to some Vietnam vet with post traumatic stress. And OK, I can accept you don't masturbate heaps, but something is wrong there.
But I am curious and will continue to visit your site. Maybe it’s because you served in Argentina. And yes, there is no free speech in church, I know that for a fact and have suffered much in church because of it. Church is a kingdom and not a democracy and the leadership make sure it stays that way.
What's TBM????
Jose, el loco.
Wow,
I was listnening to the audio why everyone responded to insults only?
But hey:
You guys started this fight. Saying the church I belong to and love is all lies and BS? The spirit only emotions? That that little old man Hinkley is a fraud? Joseph Smith, an American Prophet, is a rapist and adulterer? And you think that's not insulting or judgemental??
And I'm judgemental? Right!
Maybe you'll block my posts now, stop my 'free speech', but it won't stop the battle you wanted to fight with mormons.
Jose, el loco.
And I won't return my recommend at all!
And that link to the temple ceremony is the most offensive part of the site. How would you like to have your most sacred things thown around like that??
Misfit Mary,
Your correct in saying that.
At the start of my journey into Mormon Truth I felt offended but then when people actually answered I started to want to know what made these 'White boys' change from kids who grow up LDS to anti-church to this extreme. But after Ray's "I've felt the spirit in an "R" rated movie" BS, I said: nop. These white boys grew up with the truth and have turned against it; not away from it, against it in a war sense.
Then Samuel answered my questions in that audio and I once again had some hope in finding out way they changed: now his very upset obviously. I'll wait a while to see if he calms down since I also have to calm down after Samuels last post.
Jose,
(And I still find it offensive to hear that Joseph Smith was a rapist! even if the man was white)
About Pt Kimball and McKay,
You had me worried with those quotes. I only have Miracle of Forgiveness in Spanish.
Pg 64: "uno o una debe dar su vida mas bien que consentir en perder su castidad" ?
Pg 61: "Vuestra virtud vale mas que vuestra vida....jovenes, preservad vuestra castidad aun a costa de vuestras vidas" ?
Is that what you're referring to? But it speeks of Chastity and Virtue which is about a way of life. Its not biological virginity, since a married person is also required to be virtuous and obey law of chastity.
I believe that the sisters raped in South Africa suffered a crime of violance; which has nothing to do with sexuality or virtue or Law of Chastity.
And with the Miracle of Forgiveness, you and Ray and Elder Joseph could maybe re-read pg43 under "Traidores" OK ????
Jose, el loco.
Hi all... I havent posted here in a while.. but I like to check in every so often to see what Samuel as to say.
But I have to say... pleeeeease.... Jose... let it go! You are not doing any good in defending us TBM's... Much of what you are saying is really embarassing.
Masterbation is not the be all end all of spirituality.. so let it go. As far as I am concerned your actions and judgements represent a much greater sin than someone who masterbates.. And "your light" is hardly visible through your words, so please stop thinking you have this amazing gift to tell what people are sinning, when it is obvious you are totally off based in your conclusions and have much to repent of yourself.
So might I suggest getting off your hi-horse and looking inward a little more at how bad your words sound and the darkness that eminates from your judgemental and self righteous demeaner.
I say this with all due respect.. one believing member to another.
McKay
Well Ray, you seem to be getting nicer at all this. Like I've said before, you guys started the fight.
I'm offended when you call Kimballs book Trash, when you'd burn garments...etc But let that go. But lets leave that alone for now?
With Hinkley I did here him 'prophecy' like you ask; as example when he said in conference, before the Olympics, that the church needs to earn its respect from the world or we just won't have it -then the olimpics scandal broke. But I'm sure that what I see as prophesy you wont. Nor the guidance from evey conference after that (but wait, I'm starting to insult here?)
But you are way of with the entire "your mindset and we know how you think" paragraph. I was a convert and hence saw both worlds, and during my late 20's I was inactive for some time due to the rasism which exits in LDS church society (which you surely know off??)
Now maybe if you quite calling old Joe Smith a rapist and pedophile (and maybe be less sarcastic with me) we could continue this board (which seems to have reached new life and activity this past week???)
But I still stand by the 'bitting the hand that feed you' part. You guys had it all obviously because you left on that mission at the right age. I was always taught that my people are 'filthy and loansome'. And off course after hearing Samuel again on that audio I'm more convinced than ever that his mission left deep emotional scars and problems (ie F'd up your mind bit)
And my deep emotional scars come from all these disciplinary counsels I've being in, all tragic cases, confessions that I'm sick of hearing and writing about in the Reports, but when its an white boy ex missionary who falls, I kind of get some rage inside, which has come out here in this blogg too obviously. They just don't know how good they had it and then throw it all away. Ahjj
Jose.
(Not my real name off course!!!)
Dear McKay,
With all due respect, in a previous post I said that masturbation isn't a big deal and that I didn't ban the sacrament to the 3 kids that admitted to it, nor did I ask any kids, and especially YSA, if they did this.
But there is this 'darkness' inside me. I comes from reading what these Joseph Smith haters and Hinkley haters say about them. These little white boys should be publically shamed for the insults they dish out to this 96 year old! and some that died 200years ago, but they don't give their true names from the start (so I don't either)
But hopefully they're now as pissed off as I was when I first found this site. I'm sure 'Samuel' is. In this I've PROUDLY achieved something here, without calling anyone a 'fucking....perverted, "F'd in the head" idiot." like I was called, nor called anyone 'pathetic', just told them that I think they may be masturbating too much and hence caused that loss of spirit. Nothing too bad or insulting, since I used the correct term and didn't just call them fucking wankers. (But they are white boys who bite the hand that fed them for so long)
Bye,
I'm off to sleep now, peaceful happy dreams, after reading my Ensign first.
Jose.
wow... that guy has some serious mental issues. Classic case of mormon intellectual trauma.
Jose... at least you aknowledge this "dark side". I understand you are upset, but your just creating more contention here.. If these people upset you so much then maybe you shouldent hang around. I personaly understand some of their concerns as they have valid points. I think its important to hear all viewpoints and try to evaluate them without bias, accusations or judgement. My testimony is solid, so I can embrace all aspects of our faith.
I dont care if they are members or x members, or if they masterbate or watch porn... so many of these people are very good sincere people with alot of anger, hurt and confusion... I agree that these sins can reduce sensitivity to the Spirit as we know it.. and left unchecked can result in devastation... but I dont think personal weaknesses of this sort deserve public accusations or harsh and bitter judgements.
Wouldent you rather focus on what good traits they have? You seem to have had many issues that you yourself have had to work through, and ultimately your testimony was strong enough to overcome your doubts and concerns. Thats great! but obviously some people did not come to the same realization you did, and are trying to work it out in their own way. As you yourself have indirectly admitted.. much of this can be offensive and difficult to understand. So why condemn others if they have reasonable concerns and doubts?
Hi McKay, it's good to have you back. Just a few days ago I sent an email to Samuel asking if he had heard anything from you lately.
Jose, although our feelings and passions come across very strong I would like to clarify that we are not Josehp Smith and Gordon Hinckley haters. At least I am not. I do not believe that they are/were prophets, but I certainly do not hate them.
I, personally, would not go so far as to call Joseph Smith a rapist or a pedophile. I am not aware of any cases where he physically forced himself onto a girl. And seeing as how he was married to the girls (even though the nature of the marriage is questionable), young as they were, in most if not all cases, he had consent from the girls parents. I am not justifying his behavior as it is clear he had some unique sexual desires and he was not ashamed to use his position to get a piece of ass. It obviously didn't bother him that some of his brides were not sexually mature.
I prefer to call it "biting the hand that slapped us around for so long."
The church has racist issues, no doubt, Jose. But that does not exist here. We do not believe that you are anything less than a white person. It is the church that teaches/taught that dark skinned people are cursed because of their wickedness, especially black people, but anyone who is non-white. I think we can all agree that this is a load of crap. The church is still racist but the world is integrating nicely. My school has a wide variety of students. And at my sons elementary school, you are a minority if you are white, literally. So please, Jose, let the church be racist all they want.
The stereotype the church puts on you is exactly the same as the stereotype that the church puts on us: disgraceful, with no substance or truth to it whatsoever. We do not believe you are a bad person simply because you are not white. So please do not think we are bad people just because we are not Mormon. We are in the same boat, in a sence, and we should be uniting to fight against injustice rather than bickering and aruging amongst ourselves.
This is from an Salt Lake Tribune article regarding the Trolley Square killer:
Critchett said Talovic's earlier years in Utah were fraught with difficulty because he was Muslim and he spoke broken English.
"Naturally, that made him an outcast. He was often picked on at school due to the fact that he was different. It is very difficult to excel in an environment where you are treated as a loner." The constant harassment, Critchett said, made Talovic quick to be defensive.
Critchett said he has spent several sleepless nights searching for an answer to why Talovic killed five people and wounded four more. There is no way to know what happened to his friend, whom he last spoke with on Talovic's 18th birthday last fall, but he believes the young man's difficulties in his first years in the United States contributed to Monday's violence.
"Would things have turned out differently if his peers and fellow classmates had treated him with respect? I believe so."
Is the intolerant society of Utah responsible for this outrageous act?
Having just recently had a son come home from a mission, very much alive with virtue intact, I can honestly say that I would NOT rather have him come home in a pine box. And, in all honesty, I have never heard these statements before. Having heard them, I'm left with a numb feeling. As a parent, I want my children to be safe and happy and do the right things but, I would never wish them to a pine box. That's just plain silly.
Now regarding President Kimball's book, to be honest, once again, I've never read The MOF. I've always been too scared to read it..! I love Pres Kimball. He was the Prophet when I was growing up and he signed my mission papers and I feel that I can't say anything that would cause him disrespect but, once again you bring up a valid point. I do feel that it is important to teach chastity but, I would never wish any of my children to die for having lost it... I love them and try to teach them correct principles but, could never, never, never, ever feel that "IT IS BETTER TO DIE CHASTE THAN TO LIVE UNCHASTE." That is just nuts... I love them too much to feel that way.
So, Samuel, I don't agree with everything you talk about but, I do agree that you offer serious issues to rethink...
Thanks and have a great weekend.
Mark in Boise
Samuel,
I can understand your hatered towards the Mormon Church.
However, I want to correct you in one point:
The Mormon Church is not the only church preaching against masturbation, homosexuality and to keep one's virtue at all costs.
Catholicism has preached all these things for almost two millenia, not only 200 years. Millions of couples who broke up and/or fell in love with other persons were shunned in their parish, because they have broken their marriage.
They were better off in a pretended marriage than to live with whom they want to live with.
For centuries, homosexuals have married although they don't feel attracted to the opposite sex. History is full of such tragic figures, and many writers expressed their suffering in texts which became our classical literature.
All of this is not a specialty of Mormonism.
The LDS faith is just one among many conservative Christian faiths.
Evangelicals teach their children the same abhorrent teachings about masturbation and homosexuality.
Catholics and baptists are as pedantic about virginity as any Mormon can be.
In their superficial doctrines they might differ
(who cares whether God is a Trinity or three beings which form one Godhead, and where is the exact difference anyway?)
but their essential teachings are mostly the same.
On the other hand, there are also liberal churches, churches which embrace people from all backgrounds, regardless of their gender, sexual orientation, race, wealth, etc.
Often, there is a wider gap between the conservative churches on the one side and the liberal churches on the other side, than amongst those conservative churches.
Although evangelicals teach that Mormons will burn in hell forever, because they thing God has a body (a doctrine many Jews believed, because many old testament stories depict God like this!), they preach exactly the same values to their children Mormons teach as well.
So, while I can understand that you focus on the LDS church, because you were LDS for 30 years, see beyond the borders of your former religion, and recognize that the world is full of conservative bigots.
Bigotry is not trademarked by the LDS church.
If it were trademarked, the trademark would be held by the Catholics, who are in business for 2000 years,
and the protestants also got a big share in the last 500 years.
While you regard Mormonism to be the root of all evil,
believe me, if Joseph Smith had not created the Mormon empire, others would have taken his share, and you would have been raised in a bigot and conservative Jehova's Witness family, believing that masturbation is a gross sin, or in a conservative Catholic family, believing that masturbation is a gross sin, or in a conservative Protestant family, believing that masturbation is a gross sin, or in a Jewish family, believing that masturbation is an abomination in YHWH's sight.
Bigotry is shared among all world religions, be it Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Bahai.
Let's face it and fight bigotry as a whole, not only Mormon bigotry.
Denver
"Thank all of you but Jose", well! Probably because the mission comments..........
But please read up on rape and what psychologists say: It is a crime of violence; not sexuality or Chastity or Virtue. (And I actually did give a 22 year old miracle of forgiveness, who I disfellowshiped for doing his girlfriend, so Samuel even knows that detail!)
And hey Ray, there's progress at last! "I, ..would not go so far as to call Joseph Smith a rapist or a pedophile". Great!!! We could maybe start talking nicely now. Neither was my dad a pedophile for legally and lawfully marrying a 14 in 1960's Argentina -where although not common, I did happen and was permitted back then. There are racial issues in the church but I believe it's with church society now more than leaders. I don't know if Hinkley's racist but never heard anything from him to suspect so (nor from this Samuel)
Jose.
But McKay, with this site in general, are they just good people discussing issues here? Or dissenters and critics out to bring down the Mormon Church? Do they have legitimate concerns or are they out to 'get' the Mormon Church? By the massive amount of critism here from Samuel and his own vision statement, it is the latter from Samuel. This ex missionary who knows everything there is to know about the church and then instead of WALKING AWAY because he doesn't believe, he puts up a fight, a war, that the hierarchy never answers or engages in, so he fights more!
I think he's still got post traumatic stress from his mission -heck I get upset after spending a month in Buenos Aires visiting relatives and living in that crazy city so it must be worse for an LDS Utah kid who's learning the language- but that doesn't give him the right to come out insulting every president, most apostles especially Oaks and Ballard, or Elder Robins or Mickelsen or mission presidents or Romney who was a mission president........ We are all responsible for our own actions and will answer for our own actions -like that shooter in SLC will even if he was slapped around by Mormons- and like I will for my insults to these guys and Samuel will for his attacks even though he was slapped around on his mission.
And I know the church's teaching on contention etc, but I'll repent later -maybe, maybe not!
Also I'm dieing to give out my real name -even if it puts me in the Strengthening the Members Committee files and bans me for any future positions - and where I live, my current posting (I'm Navy 28 years, should be retired if not for this war) just so Samuel gives his name and true address (at least suburb) and stands up for what he really believes in before his family and community..... But he won't, I suspect, because he's probably employed by the church? My experience in church is that these faceless employees are the worst in terms of traitors and critics and lacking faith since they must keep a recommend just to keep the job and miss the point completely.
Anyway too much writing already.
Jose.
Still have to 'post' twice every time.
"Is the intolerant society of Utah responsible for this outrageous act?"
No!!!!!!!!!!!!!Never!!!!!!!!!!!
Neither is Ted Bundy's family responsible for his outrageous acts, nor Dalmers family.. nor my family responsible for my insults here, nor Samuel's Young Mens President responsilbe for Samuel apostacy even if the man raped Samuel the Utahnite (white boy!), nor is Utah society responsible for making Mitchell a kiddnapper............
ahhhhhh
I'm going to try to get laid now to calm me down a bit (if I can still trick my wife into wanting me!!!!!!!!!)
Jose.
Okay guys, I've never had to ban anyone from Mormon Truth before, and didn't think I ever would, especially a so called TBM with a high calling and temple recommend; but when someone starts being a flat-out racist toward me and others and talking about my Young man's President "raping" me, that's it, the line has been crossed and there is no return!!
As I said the other day, this guy barely qualifies as a human being and I stand by every word I said to him yesterday and I now add some exclamation marks to the end of my comments. It's just always good when the person in question is too stupid and backs up everything I said about them and proves my point.
So, any comments left by Jose, from this point forward, will be deleted and he is no longer welcome here and I'm sure that most of you will support me in this decision, even Mckay and Mark in Boise, who are TBMS and most likely find his behavior and words vile and disgusting.
At least he won't have to bitch anymore, in every other comment, about how he has to enter the letters below twice. Complain to blogger, it ain't my problem dumbass!!
Jose is a true Joseph Smith disciple, in every way. Quite honestly, I believe he's a danger to society and shouldn't be on the loose, especially interviewing children alone, behind closed doors and asking them personal sexual questions.
I'm leaving his last comment, and all his previous comments, so that everyone can see why he had to be banned and is no longer welcome here. As mentioned, any future comments will be deleted as soon as I can get to them. I don't want to ruin it for the rest of you and make all comments have to be approved by me, before they are posted, just because of one perverted, racist jackass!!
Samuel
Sam...why start censoring now?.. comments like this heat up your blog and bring lots of stuff to the surface that should be discussed... if anything he is furthering your cause by his statements.. no??
If I had a vote.. i would say let him post!
Jose...
Truth need not fear freedom of speech and open expressioin of beliefs. So if we have the truth.. what are you afraid of?
You said "Do they have legitimate concerns or are they out to 'get' the Mormon Church? "
I would answer... Yes and Yes. Personal motivation does not negate the need to ponder and discuss the controversial issues..
you also said "But that doesn't give him the right to come out insulting every president, most apostles especially Oaks and Ballard, or Elder Robins or Mickelsen or mission presidents or Romney who was a mission president"
It sure as heck does!! It could be argued that our missionary tactics are just as agressive as anything attempted here... So don't kill the messenger... just listen and decide for yourselves.
I personally thank God for living in a country where we can hear different views and decide for ourselves, and in this context.. no oppinion can be forced upon anyone.. so why try to surpress it?? I would only ever fight against Sam if he attempted to force his views upon me through force or political power. In that context I would fight until death.. as I would any religion..even the true one. Why? because true principals when forced upon another turns evey good within that truth upside down and it instantly becomes the greatest evil in existance.
Think of out own teachings... Satan wanted to force the truth upon us... Christ let us choose for ourselves and ultimatly payed the price through the atonement for any mistakes we make... if we repent. So freedom to choose how we will live is such a sacred principal that Christ payed the consequences for when that freedom is used incorrectly in order that we have it. I would stress that freedom to choose also brings our freedom of consequense.. so we should not be surprised when our lives go horribly wrong when agency is used incorrectly.
Most LDS people are afraid to discuss issues discussed here... i.e. try to bring up polygamy or peep stones in church. I find the freedom of expression here to be refreshing.. and if we could get away from the name calling and stereo types.. it could actually be constructive... i.e. John Delins site.
So relax... chill.. and remember the freedom that grants anyone here to say what they will is the freedom that gives our missionaries the right to share the gospel...
Hey Sam and Ray.. thanks for the welcome. I usually like to here what you have to say. I wasn't sure if Sam or anyone wanted me around as you seemed pretty upset a while back.
Yes Mckay, your right there.
But listen here White Boy! You can't throw so many punches and not expect some to return to you.
As for my 'white boy' remarks, I call every new white kid a 'white boy' and every new black kid a 'black boy' and the Navy has not disciplined me yet!!! Its normal nco language not racism.
You don't have to block me because I won't be back.
You didn't block the 'hate mail' link but will do me when I started here asking questions not insulting you as you did to me. I've done my part against you. But one last warning: leave Hinkley alone, the 96 year old, ninety fricking six year old who can't hurt you.
And mind you the evangelist, baptist, JW's, jews and many more dislike our doctrines but they CONSTRUCT something positive as well like their own church, while critisising our beliefs. But you, one of us before, just want to DESTROY without constructing anything good; right?
Anyway, if you ever repent I'll meet you in conference or something and say sorry then, but not now.
Bye
Raul -real name and last comment.
Just block that sorry SOB and screw any of the idiots that protest it. Let them comment elsewhere then ...
Sam..
Obviously I am not a racist... and I dont want you to keep posting "Jose's" comments because I think they are true... Rather they illustrate your points about how believing members in good standing of the church can be so horribly wrong in their judgements. I think Jose has issues, and is very frusturated for whatever reason... Obviously his words on this post dont carry the spirit.. but he does believe and is struggling with his own demons.. We all have them to some extent.. dont we? I think hiding behind the "morally clean" barrier in all too many cases is used to mask other sins like pride, predgiduce, hate, vengeance, etc. that can offend the spirit as much or more than thinking an unpure sexual thought. His posts illustrate this very well in my mind, so I think somthing can be learned.
I am reminded of a quote from Albert Einstien "As far as I'm concerned, I prefer silent vice to ostentatious virtue. "
I suppose its a none issue if he will not post any more... but you are right Sam.. its your blog, do as you wish. But to anyone reading, I cant imaging they will read Jose's words and assume his accusations are true. To me they seem rediculous.. not that I dont think people masterbate or whatever.. but the accusation that because someone does they can not contribute to the world and the whole of religous or phylisophical thought is just stupid.
Its like... instead of talking about the issues.. I will accuse you of some sin so I dont have to deal with it. Whatever. thats just lame.
I would also like to state an oppinion for the record.... I believe it is true that sins can cause loss of the spirit.. but I think we focus way to much on what offends.. and not what invites. Things that INVITE the spirit... love, kindness, caring, forgiveness, charity, patience, good will, hope, etc.. these are all good things. I think many people have these traits and can invite the spirit with these attributes. So if someone has a problem masturbating.. but has a good heart with these other traits. they can enjoy much company of the spirit, even as they struggle with their problems. On the other hand someone who does not masterbate... but they are full of anger, bitterness, resentment, judgement, bigotry etc... they will probably not carry the spirit most of the time, but again with so much focus place on the "moral" element, this becomes a barrier to hide behind.
anyway.. in regard to activity on the site.. I was thinking in terms of comments on the blog.. not visits to the site. When I was posting it got up to like 140 or somthing.. since then it went down to maybe 15 on average.. now its back up to 70. So active members posting contributes to the blog and sparks debate. But yes I do agree.. his comments are out of line and offensive. So I understand whatever you do.
Anyway.. its good to hear from you again.
McKay
Yeah, I think his points are already made, his example is already crystal clear for everyone to see and there would be no point in continuing to post comment after comment, pointing out and repeating the same things, over and over and over. I think everyone can see him for what and who he is and it's done. I don't really care what his demons are and he has my Email if he wants to discuss them. I'm hear to help people that want help or answers, not people like Jose/Raul.
I personally think that allowing someone like Jose/Raul, to continue posting and making baseless accusations that he has, instead of actually dealing with the issues, would actually drive people away, and not encourage them to participate.
Also, I think one of the main reasons that comments and participation dropped, was because of my inactivity due to time constraints. I wasn't able to hardly post on my blog at all, leave many comments or record podcasts, etc. Between family and my efforts over on YouTube, leaving less than 500 character comments, my time was pretty much tapped out. Despite the lack of comments, the actual readers and page clicks have never been higher.
I think people like good, passionate debate, and especially when that includes the actual creator of the site, who as you know, has plenty to say and I rarely hold back. Your participation definitely stirred things up McKay and I appreciate that, but I think in the end, it's all of us that make it happen collectively and not just one person individually. I will say though, that when a TBM ventures into "Mormon Truth" and stirs things up; it can go a little crazy for a while.
Take care and welcome back, as I'm sure you'll enjoy my upcoming posts and podcasts and will have plenty to say, trying to counter what I'll be posting and saying. Trust me when I say it won't be easy to defend.
Samuel
I've learnt a valuable lesson from Jose .
I've realised exactly what Mormonism does to some people and its usually the men. They are full of self righteousness and can't see anything wrong in the way Joseph Smith coersed young teens and it must be ok because he dragged God and Jesus out of heaven ?
These are dangerous people and goodness knows what skeletons are in their closet and what they are capable of after seeing the many news videos posted on Youtube .
I can't trust these so called inspired men of God .My Stake Patriarch tried to hide things from me when I asked him. Guess it wasn't faith promoting to know certain things ! Well 5 minutes on the internet is alot more truthful and faith promoting than 5 years in church.
I started off investigating Mormonism with trust and now it seems that LYING is the foundation of the religion.And worst still from debating with some on YOUTUBE its actually perectly ok to LIE when God commands it to protect the church ?? So LYING for God is ok ?? Very Scary to hear this .
When Joseph Smith and his Church Lied about polygamy to the public to the point of even calling it "obscene, and disgusting, such that none but a corrupt and depraved heart could have contrived" John Taylor's own words , it was ok because they were doing it for God ? Absolutely disgraceful and nothing but a bunch of dangerous tyrants masquerading as apostles.
Personally Jose's comments were depressing and it scared me to know there are people like him loose in church with authority. So good riddance to him .
Can we have some good mormons posting please.I know there are many out there .I've met lots in church .
Elder Joseph
Sam..
You said. "I personally think that allowing someone like Jose/Raul, to continue posting and making baseless accusations that he has, instead of actually dealing with the issues, would actually drive people away, and not encourage them to participate."
Your right.. point well taken.
You also said "in the end, it's all of us that make it happen collectively and not just one person individually"
Of course. and I do always look forward to your comments. I was bummed when you stopped posting a while back. I was actually wondering if you had lost your motivation. So its good to see you back in full swing. Although I do miss your podcasts. So even though I dont post.. Its always interesting to here what you have to say
Elder Joseph said "Can we have some good mormons posting please. I know there are many out there .I've met lots in church ."
Thank you for admitting as much. There are many wonderful people in the church. I think a few blow it for the majority.
McKay
Hey, I haven't "officially" posted here on my blog about my other projects yet, but one that you all might find interesting, especially you Mckay, is my new "Mormon Truth Interviews" podcast.
I have the first 5 episodes posted and the next 20 or so ready to go. They will cover many topics, from all walks of Mormonism. It's already being downloaded around 200 times a day, which is great. I'm sure when I actually announce it here, and have more episodes, the listnership will grow rapidly.
Here's the link, for those interested.
Enjoy!!
Samuel
I have often wondered why the church even bothers to support such groups as FARMS and FAIR. All those guys do is contradict everything the Mormons have taught and believed for 200 years!
And notice when HH asks DP what is the most compelling evidence for the church, he doesn't even list anything!?!? except the testimony of the witnesses. This is laughable. If the witnesses were so reliable, why did most of them leave the church? The church doesn't need FARMS for that; that is what the missionaries are for. Sorry DCP, but every time you speak, you just embarrass yourself and the church even more.
Samuel,
I've listened to all your Podcasts on ourmedia.org
Your voice changes, sometimes to almost a giggle, when 'masturbation' is mentioned.
C'mon man, clearly there's a problem? Why not just admit the truth? That this is the problem that has led you away from the church; true?
Mr. Anon,
After our round with Jose there is little tolerance for jerks who come in here and act like holier than thou assholes. You are no better than a damn pharisee. You are so busy bragging about how wonderful and righteous you are while pointing out the stereotypes in others. To all you self-righteous TBM's who think you are so much better than everone else, you had better remember that Jesus does not, did not advocate such behavior.
Can you honestly tell me Mr. Anon that you have never masturbated in your entire life? "He who is without sin, let him first cast a stone." Remember? So shut up, you hyprocritical asshole! Why is it that ex-Mormons understand the scriptures better than the whole lot of you?!
Even after I tried to make peace with Jose, he kept coming on about how sinful we all are. Seriously, you TBM's, with a few rare exceptions, are all a pack of self-righteous, judgemental, holier than thou, know it all jerks!
If you want to come in here and engage us with civility, as McKay has done, then we welcome you. I am generally a good natured person who is difficult to offend. But Jose, and now you, Mr. Anon, have pushed me past my limits by making personal insults and remarks that are completely rude, unnecessary, and downright ignorant. I stand behind Samuel 100% on this.
If you just READ Samuel's blog, it will become quite clear why we left the church. It has nothing to do with "sin" but everything to do with the churches lies, deceptions, history, changing doctrine, etc.
If you want to debate the issues, fine. If you want to defend the church, fine. But if your motive is simply to come in here, post with an anonymous name, and throw around insults, we are not going to respond very kindly, as you can hopefully tell. If you are going to come here and represent the church, don't you think you should aspire to a slightly higher level than 99% of you ever do? After all, you are defending the church of the creator of the universe. Is the best Gods elite can do is throw around a bunch of pathetic insults? This is just one more reason for me to never return to church. Thanks for being such a great missionary, Mr. Anon.
Why are all of you so obsessed with masturbation, huh? Clearly you are all thinking about it all the time, other wise you wouldn't keep bringing it up. Do you guys get some kind of sick, perverted pleasure out of this?
As far as I know, Mr. Anon, you are Jose posting anonymously so that Samuel won't delete your comment.
To all TBM's who come in here: cut the shit and the stereotyping. The purpose here is to have meaningful debates and discussions. If you can't do that, then go the hell away!!!
You know what, I have done my masturbating but like all kids stuff, I got over it and now don't. So I'm not casting a stone for nothing nor sinning with that nor being hypocritical. Samuel does have a problem there.
But understand this, you guys are the ENEMY, and as such will be fought. If you don't like it, fine, delete me.
By the way I started as charlie under Julia Sweeney, very politely, but you went of into insults.
Anon
And how do you know Samuel has a problem? Do you have video cameras hooked up all over his house? Who made you the all-knowing king of the century? Do you see what I mean when I say that almost all you TBM's think you know everything?
You're damn right I went off into insults. It's because we are sick of people like you who just strut in and start condemning us all to hell on false accusations which you have absolutely no proof of. But I don't see how you claim you were polite when you immediately start accusing Samuel of being an avid masturbater.
Again, if you want to engage us on a civil level, then we will respond accordingly.
Exactly how are we the enemy? Samuel runs a web site and this is a place for US to come together to discuss the facts amongst ourselves. You came in here and stirred things up. Just like I asked Jose, are we at General Conference screaming at people? Are we going door to door to get people out? Do we deface Book of Mormons and temple garments? No, no, and no.
Jose tried to accuse us of exactly the same thing. Yet you both came in here, started unwarranted accusations, and then wonder why we get upset.
If you want to "fight" us, do it with dignity and respect. If you can refute Samuel's claims, do so by all means. I don't know how many times I'll have to say this before it sinks in... discuss, debate, argue your point. But do it with respect. There is no need to accuse Samuel, or myself, or anyone of anything which you have no proof of. Attacking the messenger will not further your cause AT ALL. In fact it only makes you look like a fool.
Here, lets see how you like it.... When are you going to stop raping your daughter, Mr. Anon? Clearly you have a problem and need to repent. Does you wife know about it? She needs to leave you.
There do you see? My accusation against you is completely untrue (I would hope). I have absolutely no proof that you rape your daughter and yet I jump all over you like I'm king of shit hill. Quit that crap; make accusations and then provide evidence to back it up. If you have no evidence, do not make the claim.
Now, if you care to discuss one of the issues at hand...
Notice how as soon as Jose 'disappears', Mr. Anon shows up with the exact same accusations and bull shit?
Q: What's the difference between a teenager and a Mormon?
A: Eventually a teenager realizes that he doesn't know everything.
IT just goes to show how F-ked up all mormons are. Some are especially derranged, as we've had the displeasure of witnessing first-hand.
These guys are pretty much your typical representation of mormon mentality and the lies + insults they have to use as propaganda against ex-mormons. (They must convince everyone that we are all evil masturbators, because if we aren't - they might actually look at why we left the church in the first place!)
Ha 'evil masturbators' -nope (it's not that bad a sin)
Your just pathetic apostates. Traitors to the cause. Dogs turning on its vomit........
Go to hell ex-missionary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And you can go back to your little 11 commenst -or was it 3 comments average???
But Ray, to discuss the 'issues'
1) Kansas Huffington Post May 2005:
"Kansas may have seen the last of its child brides. After a pregnant 14-year-old from Nebraska drove to Kansas last year to marry her 22-year-old boyfriend...Kansas lawmakers decided it was time the set a minimum marriage age.
On Thursday, the Kansas House voted 119-0 to approve a bill that would prohibit anyone under the age of 15 from marrying in Kansas and would set strict limits for would-be brides or grooms under the age of 18. The Senate approved it a day earlier, 36-4"
AND:
2) "http://www.coolnurse.com/marriage_laws.htm
Youngest:New Hampshire: A female between the age of 13 and 17 years and a male between the age of 14 and 17 years can be married only with the permission of their parent (guardian) and a waiver.
(Side note: here, in Amsterdam, I think you can do the sex bit when 12! - if the parents agree - which seems a bit young.)" ..........Also Alabama allows 14 year olds to marry with parental consent.
Now this is 21st centuary standards, not frontier america standards. (And info is from a 2sec google search!)
Now Question: Is it unreasonable to think that Joseph Smith's marriage to 14/15 year olds was culturally acceptable in 1830's??? (with regards to age, not number of wives off course)
Sure he was a polygamists, and you can disbelieve that and condem it. But calling Smith a child rapist, pedophile? c'mon -as Samuel does frequently.
(okay I broke my promise not to post again, and insulted again, but I'm listening to Oaks' October 06 talk and felt a tinny bit repentful, so I'm back to charlie to post politely!)
Jose, Raul, Charlie
So you come in here, throw around a bunch of insults, and then leave like a coward without addressing any of the points or arguments we have presented you?
Galatian makes a perfect point which I have been thinking about a lot lately. The church creates these stereotypes to keep the members from really finding out why we left!
Just more examples of lies and deceit and another reason why I will never go back.
Jose,
My last comment was written before I read your last comment Jose.
Your last comment was much more reasonable and I thank you for not making it personal. I agree with everything you said.
If Joseph Smith had married just one girl, and she was 14, it wouldn't be that big of a deal.
The real issue is, of course, his multiple wives and the fact that he denied being a polygamist his entire life. And the fact that he married himself to women who were already married to living men.
Why does the church still hide, to this very day, the fact that Joseph was a polygamist? Because they know it makes him look bad, and therefore the church look bad.
Ray,
I honestly don't agree that the church hides his multiple wives (and it would've being easier if Emma was the 14year old) It’s on familysearch but more important is section 132 and the doctrines there. Sealing policy, I believe, comes from that section mostly, but it also evolved over the decades (we say revelation, off course, but for here...) I actually learned about polygamy from that big LDS History of the church book from ‘60something (forget the name, had some 300pg's) that showed where Young put his 30something wives! I went, like, what????? But every time i argue with non-members (frequently & even when inactive) I point out that the patriarchs, Abraham etc, had several wives but polygamy was banned in BoM times and allowed again in 1800's, but not now.
But look, although I read all the quotes for needing to obey the 'new covenant' of polygamy for reaching Godhood etc of young and woodruff, and read Quinn's."... Extensions of Power", I personally hope that somehow I can reach the highest level with just my wife only. I really don't want 2, or 30. If Joseph Smith can live with 30, & they with him???, it’s their business and their problem not mine. I'd only be concerned about the adultery part, if it was there.
But I've yet to really study about him marrying other men’s wives. The why. I suspect, note SUSPECT, that it was only a sealing or entering the new covenant because the other man wasn't there, or similar, but no I don't know why really yet.
But as before, it’s not what keeps me in church and 'funds'(?) my belief. That comes from God through the Spirit..........etc etc..Which isn't just emotions nor just a good feeling (its difficult to describe but its external to us, like a light) The rest is just history for weekday study, needed, but not critical to salvation or forgiveness of sins (& OK I know i gotta repent of the insults......!!!) Have to get going now. Maybe I'll check here again tuesday.
Raul (ex Jose, ex charlie)
Raul,
Your comments have greatly improved and now we have a good discussion going.
I would agree that the church does not necessarially "hide" Joseph's polygamy, but they certainly do not make any attempt to openly share it. They are more open about Brigham Young's polygamy although they even try to distance themselves away from that.
Honestly, the polygamy issue was never really a big deal to me, so I have not done much research or reading about it. I definitely agree that one wife is more than enough for me! Why anyone would want more is beyond me.
Your idea about Joseph being the "proxy" for a marriage between a couple where both are living and the husband is away is an interesting one. As I think about it, I have to disagree although it is a very interesting idea that deserves consideration.
First of all, the "proxy" is not actually the one getting married. If Joseph was a proxy, then he would not have claimed the woman as his bride, but the bride of her husband. The proxy has no sexual claims to the bride whatsoever.
Secondly, a proxy wedding is meant to be done only for someone who is dead, not just away on a trip.
If proxy weddings could be done for the living, there would be no need for anyone but temple workers to ever go to the temple. We have all heard stories of families who sacrifice everything to go to the temple. The church has never taught anything about proxy work for the living.
And about the spirit, I guess we will just have to let it go and agree to disagree. Have a great weekend.
Hey Raul, Jose, Charlie,
What's the deal man? You said that I didn't have to ban you or delete your comments, because you wouldn't be leaving anymore and now you can't stop? You are also a liar, on top of everything else and not a man of your word. You were leaving Anon comments so that I wouldn't delete you, even though I knew 99% that it was you, so that makes you a coward as well.
If it does come down to it, I'll go to moderator approved comments only and just delete any of yours that come through. Why don't you just make it easy on everyone and live up to your own words and get the hell out of here.
Also, you mentioned how I won't reveal my name, identity, where I live, etc?(in order to protect myself and family) Is it any wonder with psychopath Mormons like you roaming the earth? Also, I've got around 40-50 hours of my voice out there, that anyone could recognize, so if you want to be a man and want everyone to know who you are, either just tell us or put out some audio of yourself, so that we can hear you talking. Maybe somebody can recognize you. So, don't tell me that I'm not taking any chances pal!!
So, hey Jose, are you just some F'd in the head masturbating, psychotic, fatal attraction or what? Where you able to "trick you wife" into wanting you and "get laid", in order to "calm down?" Did you really give it to her man and get out your sexual frustrations, after speaking about masturbation non-stop for days? Did she masturbate your "dick that you can't stop playing with?" Like Ray said, your an asshole!! I'm not falling for your "I've repented" bullshit!! If anyone is a dog in vomit, it's you pal and you're rolling all over the place in it, enjoying every moment.
I just can't understand why such a great Christian/Mormon man like you, with such a responsible calling, would want to continue to hang out and leave comments in such a filthy, dirty, scummy, loathsome, offensive place that trashes your beloved "Prophets and Apostles/cult leaders", especially Jose Smith, the first Mormon pedophile of God and child rapist? What keeps bringing you back Jose? Is your need to speak about masturbation, so that you can get a hard-on and then get your rocks off, you sick, perverted racist? Do you masturbate while writing comments?
Let me guess, your sitting naked at your computer, wishing you were Joseph Smith and could marry little girls secretly, without your wife knowing and have sex with them? Hey, maybe we can catch you on one of these Dateline "To Catch A Predator" shows? Just let us know when you'll be on and we'll all tune in, okay Jose?
See, if you know so much about me personally, then I'll just make up anything I want about you, just like Ray did, to make our point. If you wanted to be treated like a complete piece of shit, then act like a complete piece of shit and you'll get your wish, you sick perverted masturbator!! All I know, is that there's something there man, some big sexual sin or problem and I know this without a doubt....just being you Jose...how do you like the reflection?
Sometimes, in order to show an asshole, what an asshole they are, you need to be an asshole...however, I don't think anything would sink in with you, so I'm just treating you like an asshole, because you are and always will be an asshole, and you deserve it!!
Furthermore, I won't forgive you, because you haven't even apologized, just like your Hierarchy refuses to do and I'm sure still proudly stand by ever slur and thing you've said. Ray or anyone else that wants to, can continue dialogging with you if they want, but it's only a matter of time Ray, before he starts screaming "EVIL ANTI-MORMON MASTURBATORS" again!!
I see no need to continue subjecting ourselves to this bullshit and abuse any longer. The man is mentally ill and needs professional help and I have no desire to help him at all. This guy is hands down, the lowest piece of filth, that has ever entered Mormon Truth.
Samuel
I would like to continue the discussion with Raul as long as everyone minds their P's and Q's. However, Samuel, if you choose to delete his comments, then I guess the debate is over.
He's all yours Ray and I guess McKay likes him, so you guys have fun. Just address him as "Jose the perverted, serial masturbator" in every comment from now on(even multiple times in the same comment) and see how long the scumbag sticks around. Oh yeah and don't address his points at all, just keep accusing him of shit you know nothing about, as if it's FACT.
He's a typical Mormon Apologist bully, who can't stand anyone taking a personal shot at them, but he wants the freedom to say whatever he wants and accuse anyone of anything. Hey, maybe it's actually Daniel C. Peterson?
Samuel
You gotta see this:
"What if Al Kaida recruited like the Mormons do?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qw7ezm2IA8
Hey Samuel, you’re rattled; Ooohhh -plus down to my vulgar levels & after that audio response to l’ttle ol me, & saying you’ve done commenting to me; oughta claim that a small victory!!!!
But you know, I’ve being fighting your kind since before you was itching your daddy’s garments pants! -To be polite.
But it was one post that I think really got to ya. So here it is again:
“”
As to you serving a mission, I still say shame on you. You're probabably white(true?) middle class, had it all from the start, taught what the truth is, probably got the church to pay your tuition at BYU, and now you do this? You bite the hand that fed you.
You could just stop believing and go fishing (or shopping) but no, you want to fight and go to war against the church of your youth? I don't believe in catholism anymore but I'm not at war against them. I even help out when I can.
I haven't heard the audio yet, will do now, but I was honestly hoping to understand you White Utah boys and why you fell away. Thought that maybe they treated you bad in your mission or you couldn't adapt to returning home and do this instead of blowing your brains out like some others returned missionaries do. But no, you do it just because you hate the church and God and then have the nerve to call that hatred 'freedom of thought'
Jose.
Thursday, February 15, 2007 2:00:51 PM
“ “
And please, never give out your real name and address, OK? I’ll find another strategy to get on your nerve in the future.
Raul.
By the way, we have a static IP address here, so it's really 100% sure not 99%, you dumb ass.
Trace to see what post and country I'm in -so you can visit me -I'll be polite.
And no, I'm no Daniel Peterson -he's probably white boy, middle class..............................etc etc etc
Raul.
or Jose & charlie
Samuel,
Here's why I keep comming back to insult you, you say:
"mainstream church or cult, that preaches a woman should die fighting off her rapist, than be raped and live and feel shame for having survived"
"live and feel shame for having survived" You asshole!!!!!
Look at Elizabeth Smart to see what our church does to help victims; even Hinkley called to congratulate her parents and she played her harp at functions that Hinkley attended! plus many more. She's out on Larry King saying yes to being a devote mormon and that people tell her daily that they prayed for her and much more.
Shame on you Samuel. NO: F'YOU ASSHOLE
These insults are your lowest points in you sorry misserable life. So, dude, little sorry white boy utahnite, repent today or go to hell like other dickhead ex-missionaries do.
F'you Samuel.
Raul.
Do you really think that the LDS church would show that side of their religion to the world? Elizabeth Smart has been all over the news. There is no way that the mormons would try to put themselves in bad light. I don't think so.
Well, Samuel, you were right. I thought we might actually get somewhere with this guy but apparently he just wants to fight and insult.
OK Sam.. go ahead and block him. I hate to say it but you were right.
Yeah, I tried to tell you guys, but now you've all seen it for yourselves...again!! It appears that he's the rattled one who left how 3 more messages and is basically talking to himself now and revealing his true self more with every comment. It's pretty sad when he even loses the support of TBMS, isn't it?
To be honest, my last post directed towards this loser scumbag, was done hoping that he would do exactly what he did and implode again, for everyone to see. I just wanted anyone that doubted me, to see that what I was saying was exactly true, in regards to his character and who he truly was and that he wasn't sorry about anything he'd said and couldn't continue to be someone that he wasn't and it was only a matter of time, as we can all see.
I'll leave up these last few comments as an object lesson to all, but delete any more of his comments going forward. I would ask that you guys here not engage him any longer or encourage him to keep lying and leaving more comments and he'll just go away and crawl back into his TBM hole that he came out of.
Of course, you're all free to do what you want, but with his comments being deleted, your comments will stand alone and not make sense or be in context, unless you just want to comment about him.
Just keep in mind everyone that this sick F'd in the head, mentally unstable pervert, was once meeting alone with young kids, behind closed doors and asking them if they masturbated and then handed them a copy of "Miracle of Forgiveness." He is an example of some of the men that Mormon Inc put in charge of wards, branches, stakes and districts. This is an example of the famous "Mormon inspiration" that supposedly helps the Hierarchy call Bishops, Apostles, Stake Presidents, etc.
Would any of you TBMS reading this, want your 12 year old little boy or girl, meeting with Jose in private and asked if they masturbate or look at porn? I sure hope not!! He's just another rotten piece of fruit from Mormonism, on display for all here to see.
Ray, you and I are a lot alike, in that we like to assume the best of everyone and give them the benefit of the doubt. However, my experience with a ton of TBMS over on YouTube was very eye opening and shocking and I no longer give that benefit of the doubt for long. Once they start blasting and reveal themselves, the gloves are off and I show no mercy or have any pity for their mental instability.
I've been saying for a long time that Mormon Apologists are one of the lowest forms of life I've encountered and Jose, along with all the TBMS I met in YouTube confirm 100% what I'm saying.
They literally have no values, no morals, no worth and are just like Joe himself; in that they will justify anything and everything in the name of their God and religion and do whatever it takes to further their cause. It's easy to see that these are the type of folks that would have helped Brigham Young carry out MMM or kill the non-believers with the blood atonement or execute "on the spot", any black man that mixed his seed with a white woman.
They are so deep in it, that I'm not sure there isn't anything they wouldn't do, to make Hinckley happy and protect the image of the church, even if they had to kill, thus explaining the countless threats I've received. I strongly caution anyone leaving the church to weigh very carefully, the dangers that you might face, if you plan to be public and active in fighting against the church, especially in Utah.
The fears and threats are real and it isn't worth literally risking your life and the lives of your friends and family for this damn Mormon cult. I really don't want to have to be checking my brake lines everyday before leaving the house. Sadly, I'm slowly realizing and accepting, that there are many more of these "Mormon Apologists", that do know the "real truth", and will literally do ANYTHING to defend it and cover it up. These people need serious professional help.
That's why we call it a cult folks!!
Samuel
Hey, Samuel,
if I remember correctly, you were serving a mission in a spanish speaking area, right?
I just found this spanish introduction video "Introduccion a la Iglesia"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEA6bHRpZXc&mode=related&search=
Maybe you like it.
Daniel
Here is another youtube video.
It is amazing.
I especially recommend it to all people recovering from Mormonism:
"Mormonism is a delusion"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ
Cool video. Does anyone know how to save these videos to your computer?
ray ,
You can download you tube videos here http://www.downloadyoutubevideos.com/
It comes as a FLV file , you may need to convert to MPG etc with software like Total Video converter .Its the only method I know .
Reading on here is quite an eye opener . At first I thought Samuel was just wasting his time responding to 'Jose the real lamenite'. But I've a learnt a valuable lesson about the mentality of some church leaders , so its been well worth it and time well spent because we can see the true colours of some of these mentally unstable men with some power and authority inside the LDS church . Scary !
I've noticed too that Lying for God is OK according to some Mormon Freaks on You Tube, apparently they reckon God commanded lying in the old testament in order to protect the church/prophets etc so its Ok for Joseph Smith and all the other BIG Liars after him to Lie !! So there you are they will justify anything.
There are some Mormons however who have a good conscience and are genuinely concerned about the lying and also the sexual coersing of vulnerable women and young girls into polygamous marraiges.
Dude, seriously, who cares? So a bunch of people choose to believe in mormonism? Why do you care so much? I really want to know. I am a mostly active LDS woman and I have two kids and no real time to read ALL your posts and comments and stuff. What I have read is "blah blah blah, the mormons lie, blah blah blah, if only you knew the truth, blah blah blah, mormons are brainwashed, blah blah blah." What truth? That they aren't perfect? That a lot of them are corrupt? Who cares? There are imperfect corrupt people in ALL churches. What is it about the mormons that has you all riled up? I'm not baiting you or anything, I just really am curious. I think most of the mormon doctrine teaches good morals and values and generally helps people try to live better lives, so why is it so bad? Please, if there is a truth to be known, that is proven actual fact I'd like to know what it is, without having to search all the posts and blogs. I just don't have the time. Thanks :)
ps - I just read my post above, and it came off sounding negative and like I was attacking you, and I really didn't mean to. I'm sorry about that. I REALLY am curious about your story. Who you are, what in your life led you to the path you are on (and I really don't support the masturbation theory either!), how you came to a knowledge of your truth about the mormons, etc. Even if you don't want to repeat it all here, just tell me which blog or post to read. You probably won't send me inactive or anything like that, but I have always thought there were two sides to everything, even mormonism.
Mrs. Mostly Active,
To any serious TBM who inquires about why we do what we do, we don't mind sharing with you at all. People have asked me certain things in the past and don't necessarially like the answer.
Basically the reason we talk about Mormons here is because we all used to be Mormon. You wouldn't expected a bunch of ex-Mormons to get together and talk about the JW's right? We talk about Mormonism because it is what we know and what we grew up on.
Yes, there are good and bad people in every organization. I don't think there is anyone here who would deny that Mormonism has its good points.
Our main criticizm of the church is not the members nor the teachings, but mostly the leaders. As you know perfectly well, they claim to be prophets, seers, and revelators. At one point, we opened our eyes and realized that they do little or no prophesying, seering, or revealing.
In fact, they cover up their very shady history, and for 10% of your income they will tell you what god wants you to know... that the church is true and you need to keep paying.
We didn't just invent these ideas so we could have a good excuse for leaving. We discovered many, many things that prove that the church is not as wonderful and glorius as they would like you to think.
We discovered that Brigham Young was a dictator who actually executed the Blood Atonement on some members. We discovered that Joseph Smith's translation of the papyrus scrolls into the Book of Abraham was a complete fabrication. We discovered that the church is/was extremely racist. We discovered that Joseph's first vision never even happened. Quotes from many early church leaders clearly show that they had no idea that Joseph had claimed to see god. We discovered many changes in the scriptures and church doctrine. Isn't that apostacy? We discovered that temple ceremonies were plagerized from the masons by Joseph Smith and that they have changed many times in spite of the fact that "they are revealed from heaven and can never change."
I have only scratched the surface with all the problems and issues with Mormonism. We all had to face the fact that the church is not true and Joseph Smith was a man of very shady character.
You are welcome to stick around if you wish. We can talk about these issues one at a time and look at the very strong evidence supporting our claims. If you want to hear the other side of Mormonism, this is the perfect place!
Welcome to Mormon Truth. If you come here sincerely seeking knowledge, you will have a great time. Treat us with respect and we will respond accordingly. Looking forward to a fun discussion!
P.S. Thanks for the tip, Elder Joseph
Mrs. M.A.
I will attempt to answer all your questions. Please forgive me if I miss one or two.
First, your question: is being a Mormon really so bad?
No, I don't think it is. I believe that many teenagers have avoided smoking and drinking because of the Word of Wisdom. That is a great thing. But ask yourself, is the Word of Wisdom the only source that says tobacco is bad for you?
Valuing your family is also a good thing. But are Mormons the only people in the world who love their families? Family values are taught in many religions.
Your comments about your liberal thinking (typical house wife, Utah is not Zion, etc.) is a pre-curser to discovering the truth about the church. If you disagree that Utah is Zion, then technically you are disagreeing with an inspired prophet of the lord. This means you are rebellious. I was that way myself. I was thoroughly convinced on my mission that the inspired "mission rules" were nothing but a control tactic. Why? Because frankly all of my companions who were 100% loyal to the rules were jerks and assholes. This was one of my first early discoveries that the church uses manipulation in place of inspiration.
Is the priesthood a sham? Yes. What about people who are healed after a blessing?
When a blessing is given, there are three possible outcomes from god: "yes", "no", and "wait". If god says yes, the person is healed right away. If god says "wait" the person eventually gets better. If god says "no" then the person probably dies. Do you see how no matter what the blessing, Yes, No, or Wait makes the blessing infallable? Does everyone who gets sick die? No. Does everyone who gets sick get better? No. What about all the priesthood blessings where the person was not healed? If you think about it clearly and logically, you will see that those who get better after a blessing would have gotten better anyway! Those who die after a blessing would have died anyway. The "yes, no, or wait" answer is simply a way to explain the times when a blessing does not work. If it was true priesthood, the person would get better EVERY SINGLE TIME! And think about it even further. Humans are naturally selfish and greedy. Is god stupid enough to give unlimited power to man? The concept of the priesthood is nothing more than a power trip. If even one person truly had the power of god, everyone would know it! He would be able to move mountains, walk on water, basically all those things that the Bible says Jesus did. But have you ever seen even one of these things take place? Even one? No you haven't because Mormons are just people who THINK they have the power of god. Remember, god is omnipotent (all powerful) so if someone has the power of god they are also omnipotent. Is this true of anyone you know? Do your priesthood leader fly around like Superman and do miracles and unexplainable actions? No they don't. They are just men and they have no authority from god at all. What about healings that occur in other churches that are an "abomination" to the lord?
We are as much in shock as you when TBM's with big booming testimonies defend the church with every cuss word and insult in the book. It really discredits their argument, doesn't it? Aren't they supposed to be Christlike?
In response to Ray's question on how download the youtube videos... visit http://keepvid.com/. Download their free FLV player and follow the directions. You can load the youtube video on their site and download to your hard drive and then play using their flash video player...
Hope this helps.
Mark in Boise
So many of the problems we are speaking up are social... not doctrinal. The church has many many problems socially, but how does that make the church not true?
I mean really.. how do you explain the BOM?? Say what you will but I have found no compelling evidence whatsoever that it is fabricated.
So what is the big deal if JS had his head in a hat most of the time with a sear stone. Do you know of any person that could dictate the BOM word for word while his head was in a hat? What was the hat for? maybe just to block out distractions? I mean to us it seems weird.. yes. But what was the purpose? And still.. how the heck can you dictate the BOM word for word with no immediate references? Joseph Smith could stop the translation for days, or weeks.. even months, then sit down and pick up right where he left off. with absolutely no references. To me the fact that he used a hat to block out distractions just goes to prove that he did not use references.. and makes the translation all the more miraculous.
The Book of Mormon itself is a stunning work with more layers of truth and wisdom than I can comprehend after 100 readings. How could one uneducated boy accomplish such a work? Read some of JS personal writings.. he could hardly spell correctly! His wording and expressiveness is amateur at best when not speaking under the influence of the Spirit. My testimony is build around the Book of Mormon.. I simply marvel at its depth. The fact that JS was such an imperfect person with little education just proves all the more to me that the revealed word is from God.. not JS. I sincerely believe God chooses the weak things of the earth, the despised and downtrodden to bring about his miracles. JS is just another example of this.
Dear M.A.
Perhaps my 'Utah being Zion' was a bad example, but my point was that if you disagree with ANYTHING then then you're not being an obedient, submissive Mormon (according to them).
I have lived in Utah for several years now (around 5) and I have never liked it much either.
Lots of questions!
Jesus: A huge myth. Keep in mind I am speaking for myself here. These are the conclusions I have come to personally. There is no evidence that Jesus did any of the miraculous things the Bible says he did. A fatherless hero, like Jesus, Hercules, and Anakin Skywalker are typical characteristics of mythological characgers. All are heros, all save people who can't save themselves, and all are half god/half human. Anakin wasn't half god, but was practically invincible.
God: have no idea. I currently consider my agnostic.
Death: have no idea. I'll find out when I go.
Married: Yes, in the temple. My wife has dealt with my apostasy okay.
Kids: One six year old.
LDS Family members: everyone as far as I can see on both sides, except my father who left the church 10-12 years ago.
How do they react: Many of them don't know and I prefer to keep it that way. I've been preached at a few times but no one has shunned me.
Journal of Discourses: You know I'm not actually sure as to the official definition of what they are. But they are basically a 30 volume set of church history, and teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. I doubt if they are considered official scripture but they can be purchased from the lords bookstore so obviously the church doesn't think they are that bad.
Ideally, your concept of the priesthood is correct. If a person is wicked their priesthood will no longer work. Problem is, did it ever work?
Please, if you have time, go ahead and share your arguments. Samuel has always challenged anyone to prove him wrong if he is incorrect in any position. Of course, we require good proof, not just an excuse or a pathetic explanation.
***********************************
Ok now on to the papyrus scrolls and the Book of Abraham. At the time Joseph had the scrolls, no one could translate Egyptian hyroglyphics (spelling?) so no one could challenge Joseph to see if his translation was correct.
Over time, the scrolls were lost and you have probably heard how they were destroyed in a fire. Well, somehow they ended up in a museum in NYC and they were discovered in 1967. Now, we do have the ability to translate ancient Egyptian.
The church was excited to have the scrolls examined. They were sure this would provide proof of Joseph's divine ability to translate ancient documents. However, just the opposite happened.
The church was disappointed when report after report came in, from both LDS and non-LDS experts, that the translation provided by Joseph Smith did not even closely match the actual content of the scrolls. Joseph had claimed that the scrolls were literally written by the hand of Abraham. However, the scrolls were dated about 2000 years after the time of Abraham! Oops!!!
Of course, the church put mums on this whole story and continues to preach, to this very day, that the Book of Abraham was translated off of the papyrus scrolls.
The church has admitted, in only one place that I know of, that the Book of Abraham does not match the content of the scrolls. Find a July 1988 Ensign, or go to LDS.org (I will put a link) where they talk about this problem and try to explain it away. >I Have a Question, July 1988 Ensign
McKay,
If you ask my opinion, social problems are more devastating to the church than doctrinal problems. Doctrinal problems are for people of opposing faiths to argue. But in the case of the Book of Abraham, how does that not cast doubt on Joseph's character? He has been caught producing false scripture and the evidence that he lied about it is overwhelming.
Since you have provided many insiteful thoughts in the past McKay, I would really like to hear what you think about the second comment I left for M.A. when I talk about the quotes from Brigham Young and others which clearly show that they had no idea that Joseph had claimed to see god.
Again, in my opinion, the social problems for the church are much more compelling than doctrinal problems. You can argue for or against the trinity doctrine, for example, but that provides no evidence for the truthfulness of the church as a whole. Or have I misunderstood what you meant?
You bring up a very good point about the translation of the Book of Mormon and honestly, I do not have the answer to that at this point. Some of the things in church history are very interesting and difficult to explain. There is compelling evidence both ways.
The only thing I can think of right now is that IF the Book of Mormon is a fraud, then everyone involved in it's production was in on the fraud. It is possible that everyone involved gave false testimonies as to what really happened. Sorry, but that's the best answer I can provide with the knowledge I currently have. This is hardly compelling evidence but it does give you something to think about. Does anyone else have a better explanation?
McKay
You ask about how Joseph Smith could have come with the book of mormon ? I've read it too and its quite extraordinary.
Alot of it existed in other books at the time .Lehis' dream of the Tree of life , spacious building etc was a dream of joseph smiths father .He will have taught it to his family many times and then its easy to remember . Same with Father lehi having 6 kids , Joseph was one of 6 kids .In the Narrative Nephi refers to My Father ( Joseph Smith referring to his Father ) etc
Lots of OLD king James bible verses thrown in including peculiar translation errors of the 1611 version .
Ideas from Ethan Smiths View Of The Hebrews thrown in .
Try Grant Palmers's Book An Insiders View Of Mormon Origins , it will give you another perspective on the origin of the book Of Mormon . There are good articles online also . Even though they are 'antimormon' the points are good .
Head in a Hat ? Why does the church lie and mislead its members and investigators like myself about this . I though Joseph Smith was a divine Translator from the church pics and what the missionaries told me . What a shocker it was for me HEAD IN A HAT !! wake up ! lol
I don't feel the spirit with the missionaries anymore now I know they know nothing about the reality of the history . They are stunned by the Head in a hat !! lol
If Joseph Smith was a fraud the implications are serious . All those women ( teens ) misled into polygamy . All thiose Brigham Young teachings on slavery being from God and not to be abolished , despite the fact that the evangelicals and shakers had already stopped by law at least the barbaric practice in England 60 years prior to Brighgam Young speaking on behalf of God .
I personally feel the spirit of God was with the Evangelicals and Quakers who took action to abolish slavery and not Brigham Young who said it was a divine institution not to be abolished til Christ returns .
God works through men inspired to do right and not wrong . Brigham was arrogant and mean and a Dictator .
Elder Joseph
Ps I enjoy my Word Of Wisdom though .. cheers !
The problem with the first vision as you have stated is simply not a problem for me. I would imagine if I had seen the first vision as a boy... I would be a little insecure about discussing it openly. The first vision was mainly an answer to the the Prayer of JS and was to serve as a foundation for his faith and testimony. The Book of Mormon was given to teach us how to learn and experience for ourselves.. to whatever degree, what JS learned. Joseph consistently testified of the Book of Mormon as the foundation for our faith and conversion... not the first vision. He spoke of angles and visitations often to various individuals, and who knows what he was comfortable disclosing to certain individuals. There are records that show indirectly that people were aware of the first vision very early on... but the proper context was not made known publicly until much later.. JS grew into his capacity as a prophet... he had doubts, fears, and insecurities as anyone would. Only once he was comfortable with himself as a prophet and the foundation that was built for personal conversion and testimony, did he feel comfortable disclosing certain things openly.
I think there is compelling evidence for both sides.. to say as Sam does that not one shred of evidence exists to support the BOM is just plainwrong. There is much evidence to be had, the question is if you will ecxept it or not. What evidence are you going to believe? Like the fact that there are cities.. advanced civilizations that are being found via sonar scans of the shore of Guatemala and Cuba.. early scans are showing concrete structures and complex roads thousands of feet underwater. Totally out of sync with tectonic plate theory or any history we are aware. These cities are either millions of years old or the result of huge cataclysmic events that we are unaware of in typical history. Either way they are way advanced for anything we know to exist at the time. This meshes very well with descriptions of the destruction in the BoM at the time of Christ death and resurrection when he says "And many cities have I cause to be sunk in the depths of the sea.. etc." (paraphrasing).
There is much compelling evidence out there.. like I said. Will you accept it or not? That is everyones personal choice. But just as I say you have valid reasons for concerns in many of your criticism.. so do I have many reasons to believe. There is compelling evidence for both sides.. It again is more a question of what you will believe.
I will respond more later to the additional comments
McKay,
Your point is a good one and the only problem is that right in the Joseph Smith history he tells of going home and immediately telling his mother about his vision. He then relates that shortly afterward, he told a minister and from there persecution got worse and worse and worse. According to Joseph, this happened when he was still very young as he refers to himself as still being in his "infancy". So according to himself, he was very open and honest right up front because he did not want to deny it because he was afraid to offend god and damn his own soul.
So Joseph's story contradicts what Brigham Young and others were told about the first vision.
If there is evidence of advanced ancient cultures in America, it could be from Book of Mormon times and people. But just because there are ruins and ancient cities, does not directly prove the Book of Mormon is true. The Bible story is based around actual cities and historical events but that does not mean that everything in the Bible is true. I would be very interested to see these sonar scans and sunken cities. Is there a documentary of some kind? Who is doing the research? Mormons or actual scientists?
The problem for me is that with all the evidence for and against the Book of Mormon, it seems, like you said, that it makes it a personal choice of believing rather than a more informed choice. Since that doesn't work for me, I need to find another way to determine "truth".
One of the best ways, for me, is to examine Christianity in general. If Christianity is false, then obviously the church must also be false since it is based entirely on Christian ideas; and the truthfulness of the church directly depends upon the truthfulness and actual existance and ministry of Christ.
The problem with Christianity is that it is nothing but a bunch of superstitious fairy tales that have no real truth or substance to them.
You have to eat Jesus' flesh and blood? Gross! Sounds like a sick, discusting cult.
The whole concept of a saviour with a god for a father and a mortal mother is typical of mythological stories. The hero is immortal and saves everyone who can't save themselves. Typical.
The story of Adam and Eve and the fruit and the serpent is much older than Christianity and Judahism.
Most scientists now agree that there was never a great flood that covered the whole earth.
So not only is there strong evidence against the church, but Christianity in general.
Once again, just because there are real places and events in the Bible, does not mean that it is all 100% true. The Work and the Glory is a fictitious book that was written around true/semi-true events.
For me to find my truth, I have to get a view of the largest possible picture. DNA evidence, the lack of battle fields full of bones and weapons, the lack of any language known as reformed Egyptian, the evidence against Christianity in general, Joseph Smith's obvious lies (polygamy, first vision, Book of Abraham). All these things indicate that the church is not true and is not inspired of god.
There is more evidence supporting Mormonism than there is supporting Christianity. But if Christianity is shown to be false, the Mormon church is false by default.
This is how I have come to my conclusion. I do not mock those who choose to believe or try to tear down their faith. In fact the only place where I am 100% open about my feelings is here in Mormon Truth, and here the TBM's come to ask questions so I do not think that I am out of line in honestly answering the questions presented to me.
ps... sorry I posted and deleted.. I ment to preview.. not post.
Dear Ray,
Goodness! this post is becoming boring now with no fights, insults & cruel acusations.
But your comments: "God: have no idea. I currently consider my agnostic." and "Jesus: A huge myth. Keep in mind I am speaking for myself here" are why mormons and you will never agree on those other details details about first vision .
I wanted to write in depth about some of these issues/questions raised - but they've already been covered to some extent by other noters. So, I will simply put it this way:
I challenge McKay (not rudely) or anyone else to click on the link to the free e-book "History of the mormons:" on my blog, READ IT IN ITS ENTIRETY and come back and tell me you still believe the church of LDS is true.
Secondly, I'm curious since there are so many "well how did he do it?" questions ... if someone would like to respond to my last written article comparing the parallels between JS and Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam.
Also, for anyone that actually bothers to read the e-book (since so many ppl claim to want to know the truth or get answers, and then say they are "too busy" to go through Samuel's blog, read an entire book or anythinge else) - the book will answer a lot of questions regarding JS's first vision, hypocrisies and changing stories, how the BOM was written and covered up, and a variety of other issues which I won't get into in great depth here (as I am extremely ill at the moment) and because reading the book will explain it far better than I ever could.
I sincerely hope that those people who claim to want to know the truth will actually take a significant amount of time and effort to read an amazing book and to RESEARCH. To me, asking to have all the answers handed down to you via notes on a blog -- is not an honest example of curiosity and desire to know the truth. It's laziness. If you want to know why TBM's left the church, what we believe, what our criticisms are, and what drove us to disbelief -- read Samuel's blogs, check out the links, read books and genuinely INQUIRE. Otherwise, you're being intellectually dishonest and simply arguing/dismissing the small tidbits of info that are offered on these notes.
Discover the truth for yourself through genuine research and reading. We can't do all the work for you. If you really wanted to know ... you would work at it.
Galatian, You said..
I sincerely hope that those people who claim to want to know the truth will actually take a significant amount of time and effort to read an amazing book and to RESEARCH. To me, asking to have all the answers handed down to you via notes on a blog -- is not an honest example of curiosity and desire to know the truth. It's laziness. If you want to know why TBM's left the church, what we believe, what our criticisms are, and what drove us to disbelief -- read Samuel's blogs, check out the links, read books and genuinely INQUIRE. Otherwise, you're being intellectually dishonest and simply arguing/dismissing the small tidbits of info that are offered on these notes.
Discover the truth for yourself through genuine research and reading. We can't do all the work for you. If you really wanted to know ... you would work at it.
I would respond...
Why do you assume I havent honestly and intellectualy inquired and researched the information you speak of? Its incredibly arrogant and rude to assume that I have a sheltered and niave understanding of mormon history in order to believe my faith. Talk about a stereo type.. I mean COME ON!. Get over yourself and you self proclaimed intellectual superiority. I have read soooo much information, pro and against the church. I have diligently studied, pondered, and inquired with nothing more than a desire to know truth. I dont let my bias determine what I will research....Rather My bias is based on a balanced research of all sides. Why would I be here if I didnt like to hear all perspectives?
I dont assume you havent read the Book of Mormon do I? I dont assume that you havent asked God with a sincere heart and real intent if its true? I dont assume that you havent read all the books available that offer many many evidences of the divinity of the Book of Mormon... or the mounds of church literature that is positive uplifting and supportive of our faith... I dont assume a dang thing.
Sorry if this comes across harsh.. But I get so sick of the condescending and assumptuous views of ex-members toward those who believe our faith (I work with an x-mormon missinary.. we have had many debates)..... This blog is full of assumption after assumition (on both sides).. cant we get past that? cant we really get to try to understand eachothers views without ridicule or condemnation? It seems as though if I sympathise with you and join you, there would be great support from all of you.. but if I hear what you have to say and still believe, them I become the enemy... Is this the case?? Can we get past that? Am I just naive to assume we can?
You know... I have spoke with many members.. family and friends about the things we discuss here. I go out on a limb to try and abolish the stereotypes, to the extent that I get criticized and warned of all your intentions. I have been in arguement with those I love to defend people that question the church. So Please people.. dont prove these stereotypes and accusations correct. AND STOP ASSUMING! JUST FRIGGIN STOP!!
If you will never see me as anything other than a "pathetic mormon apologist" as Sam likes to call me... then there truly is no point. But if this is the case, then I hope you see the hypocrosy that is demonstrated as you will shun and stereotype those who dont agree with you, exactly your critisism that we members do to others who leave the faith.
There is truth to be had outside of Mormonism.. I accept that, I embrace the principal fully.. and our Prophets have and continue to preach this... so I would assume there would plenty of common ground. I think all of you have some truth to be told, and valid oppinions in your areas of research... I want to understand it.. and I would like to share my oppinion. If this is a problem, then I will go away.
Whatever.
P.S.. Ray, you seem to be the most level headed of the bunch and I respect you so dont take this personally.
I have to keep this short as I am leaving to go out out town in a few minutes.
McKay,
No offense taken. I fully respect your decision to remain a true believer.
For me the inconsistancies with the first vision is a problem but obviously it is not for you. There are some things that we will just have to agree to disagree.
I'd love to post more but really have to get going. I'll be back tonight.
Well firstly Ray, the latter bit of the note was directed at Miss Mostly Active - or whatever her name is. And I agree that we shouldn't stereotype and I haven't assumed that you haven't done your research (as it is obvious from your previous notes that you have), but it's quite evident that other noters have NOT done so. I don't think that they are going to get their answers from reading note entries on a blogsite, I think it takes genuine research.
Secondly, I honestly don't know what more to say. If after all the FACTS you honestly still believe in the Mormon church ..??? WOW. What more can I say? All I can suggest is that you read "the story of the mormons" and tell me you still believe. That's just my suggestion.
Anyway, I won't comment any more about it because I think Raul is a pathetic person, and I think other "mormons-who-want-the-TRUTH-but-don't-want-to-investigate-so-try-to convince-me-I'm-wrong-via-a-blog-note" need to grow up and do their own work in addition to asking questions. And I think mormons who actually know all the facts and still choose to believe are in such denial and cognitive dissonance/double think that it literally leaves me ... speechless.
Well that's it from me. All I can say is that you've all just inspired me to write an in-depth entry as to how/why Joseph Smith could and would have written + lied about the BOM.
Good luck on your truth searching everyone, and Sam - keep up the good work. Some of us are out of the CogDis and we're with you 100%!
*sorry, E meant Mckay, not Ray*
Galation
You said...
And I think mormons who actually know all the facts and still choose to believe are in such denial and cognitive dissonance/double think that it literally leaves me ... speechless. "
Obviuosly you are not speechless.. as you are still speaking and plan on speaking (writing) even more.
Again.. Your arrogance truly astounds me.. I can assure you I have no cog dissidence, and I am not in denial. Rather I have greater peace of mind than I ever had, as well as a deeper understanding of human nature and the power of discernment in our lives. Most of your comments only help reaffirm my faith, not question it. Why? because I see through the arrogance and self assumptions.. and a further investigation to your claims reveals there is another side to the stories you tell. It always comes down what you will believe.. not a lack of evidence to support either position.
I will say I did go through a time of great questioning and doubt of my faith... I think anyone with true integrity has to question things and be willing to accept the results if they do not support a belief. But I decided that if I was willing enough to look as deep as I had.. then I ought to be willing to look even deeper. At first glance, much of what is spoken against the church seems very condemning and difficult to defend. However, a deeper look reveals everything in its proper context and offers a greater degree of understanding to the challenges of the human condition.
So while you say I haven't done the research, I would say yes I have, but I did not take peoples conclusions (pro or against) as final..I still don't! Rather I go on to further study, meditation, prayer...etc. I study even more and came to the conclusions for myself. The reason I engage people on this site and read what you have to say.. is I think its important to continue still in understanding different perspectives.. Since reading much on this site and researching further I have actually come out with a stronger faith, greater conviction, and a much greater understanding than ever before...
But Im sure you will just assume I am delusional or intellectually dishonest.
M.A.. I think you were a sister in a past life or somthing.. its nice to hear a rational voice from another in our faith and I thank you for your insights. Please continue doing what you can to abolish the stereotypes...
Now as a Priesthood holder I command you to go make babies, sew some clothing, and never ever question my authority or have an oppinion for yourself.
Whatever.
Raul.. As of yet I think you are in no position to give advice on proper methods of debate. I simply can not defend your accusations or behavior on this site.. and all your doing is reenforcing stereotypes and proving many claims of x-members to be right... I dont care if you are a believing member or what position you have in the church, it does not make you immune to errors in judgement.. and having someone with your standing in the church behave as you have is inexcusable and destructive to our faith.
I believe you probably do much good in the church.. I do not want to discredit your service.. But it seems that this context reveals some weaknesses.. and maybe it should be avoided until you gain some composure.
Yes McKay...whatever.
But you, and others, attempts to 'discuss' issues with these people and debate beliefs isn't getting anywhere with them. How many TBM's have tried to debate them in previous boards and got nowhere?
And anyway, what's so wrong with my language and behavior???????; I mean its nothing compared to my normal work day where I'd use the f word about 10 odd times per day!!! Normal nco language!
M.A.
I have not taken those quotes from the actual books, although I would love to someday when I can afford to purchase a set. I believe they are around $300. I honestly don't remember where I got the quotes but it was most likely from a web site.
The original poster of those quotes may have taken it out of context. However, they all are clearly talking about the first vision, not Joseph's later visits with Nephi, I mean Moroni. I know this because almost every one of them talks about Joseph's inquiry as to which church to join. In all the quotes, an angel tells Joseph not to join any churches, not god. So will you please point out why you believe they are out of context?
I would guess by reading your last post that you have not been to the temple; or if you have, it has just been recently. Up until a year ago, a person receiving their 'washing and annointing' would literally strip naked and put on a shield... more like a big white towel with a hole in the middle for your head. It was completely open on the sides. Are you naked? Hell yes! The ordinance worker would literally touch you all over your body and bless each body part, once with water, once with oil. That is not a joke or a lie; I experienced it personally so take it from me.
Someone must have sued the hell out of the church because they suddenly changed the ritual so that now your shield is sewn shut down the sides so you at least have a little privacy. You are also wearing your garments at this point when before you put them on afterwards.
I missed all the throat slashing, bowel gushing, and tongue removal, since the church did away with all that in 1990 (and the temple ordinance can never change?). But just ask Samuel about it. People for hundreds of years have been covenanting to slash their own throats as penalty for certain things. And you don't think that's evil? Now it is a little clearer why the church doesn't want people to talk about the temple ceremony... because it was brutal and satanic. Of course, they have toned it up after a member survey. LOL
If you knew that you would have to receive a naked ordinance and then swear to slash your own throat, would you ever want to go to the temple? That is why they won't tell you before hand what goes on inside.
My apologies if I have offended anyone, but that is the way it was.
And like I said, M.A., many people are very happy with the church, as you appear to be, and there is nothing wrong with that. Right up until I became inactive, I also enjoyed church. The people are/were very nice. I hope I have never given the impression that I think Mormon people are bad. I certainly do not. Most of them are happy with their religion but many of them are not aware of the issues. I am sure some would be strengthened in their faith as McKay has, others would leave the church as we have.
You just don't see how the things we have talked about prove it to be false, and that is okay too. The process is different for everyone. Anti material didn't even phase me (yes, I read it on my mission). There just came a point one day where it all fell together and was crystal clear. That may never happen to you. And I say, if you are truly happy in the church, then continue to be!
Everyone should defend what they believe in, with limits of course. I hate stereotypes and my main purpose in posting here is not to convince anyone to leave, but rather to eliminate the stereotypes and create a better relationship between Mormons and ex-Mormons. I believe we are all good, sincere people and we all have a valid point of view.
This is why I do not mind answering sincere questions from TBM's. If the question is sincere, so is the answer. They might not always like the answer, but here at Mormon Truth, everyone has the opportunity to speak openly and honestly as long as it is mutually respectful.
I'm tired after my trip so I'm done posting for today.
McKay, you'd better watch who you're commanding with your priesthood cause you might end up getting hit (or shot at if you try that bit about having babies!)!!! LOL! :)
Ray, thanks for your response. As far as the Journal of Discourse, I have no idea. It's very possible that the leaders didn't know the whole story right at first. Maybe they only heard rumors and put the stories of the first vision and moroni's visits together to come up with their own versions. Anything is possible. What I find hard to believe is that if the leaders of the church have gone through so much trouble to hide all the rest of the "shady mormon history," why didn't they hide the Journal of Discourse? If it proves so much that the church is false, why is it still around? Anyway, just a thought.
As far as the temple goes, I have been there many times, for many, many years (almost 15). I was even lucky enough to be a part of the interior work of one temple as it was being built. My friends and I volunteered to help direct people through the open house and so we had access to most areas in the temple. The night before the dedication, a friend took us on a tour all over the temple, every room, every level. Point is, the temple is beautiful, and it is sacred, and it is holy. It's not weird or scary or perverse. How many times had you been through the temple, Ray?
Galatians, are you one of those people who believes everything that's written in the tabloids? What about Jerry Springer? Is all of that real to you too? Just because something is written or documented and called "truth," doesn't always make it so. I went and read the "Story of the Mormons." It doesn't say anything I haven't read before, and it doesn't prove anything except that someone who wanted to discredit the mormons went and wrote a story and said it was based on facts. Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for a debate. You just have no proof that "Story of the Mormons" is anything more than a story. Mormons have tons of journals, histories, stories based on facts... nobody can PROVE those aren't stories either.
My intent here isn't to prove anything. I may have said this before, but I'll say it again. I only want to know how you guys came to this "truth" and why it bothers you all so much. Anyway, thanks for the answers so far.
- M.A.
M.A.
Wow, I would not have suspected that you had been to the temple for that long. Still 15 years puts you right around 1992, so you missed the R-version as well.
There is no doubt that the temple (any of them) is a beautiful building both inside and out. I'm not sure how many times I've been through but it's quite a bit. I went from 1995 to about 2004 so 9 years or so.
I don't believe those quotes are out of context at all, and do you see how you have to rationalize and whatnot to justify the quotes and yet keep your story straight? Why doesn't the church hide the JoD? That's a great question and I do not know, especially since they are chock full of damning evidence against the church.
It also makes me wonder why they still sell copies of the Lectures on Faith, since the lectures, given by Joseph Smith and published in the D&C from 1835 to 1921, clearly teach that god is a personage of spirit! Bet you didn't know that did you?
And examine a Pearl of Great Price published in 1851 (first edition) and you will see that Joseph Smith was visited in his bedroom, not by Moroni, but Nephi! Joseph Smith died in 1844 and the first PoGP was published 7 years later. Joseph lived and died claiming that he had been visited by Nephi! This is hardly a testimony breaker but does make you wonder why the church changed it and why they lie about it now.
Stories evolve and the same is true of Mormon stories. Nephi to Moroni, angels to Jesus, etc.
"Joseph lived and died claiming that he had been visited by Nephi! This is hardly a testimony breaker but does make you wonder why the church changed it and why they lie about it now."
Ray... this is totally misleading! Yes JS was visited by Nephi, but there are letters/journal entries in JS own handwriting telling of the story of Moroni as we know it before he even received the Gold Plates! He even spelled Moroni wrong (he tried to spell the names phonetically). There were many visions that are not officially taught about... He himself claimed to have treasures of knowledge that he could not bring forth, and had many many visitations and revelations that we know little or nothing about.
A look at JS own writing confirms his literacy did not even approach what was necessary to bring forth the BOM.
I suggest you double/triple check your sources, because what you just claimed is easily proven totally wrong and very misleading. So to me, it takes down your credibility a notch or two.
If that is true, then I stand corrected. How and where can one view these letters and journal entries? I was not aware that Joe's journal and letters were available for examination by the general public.
I find it interesting that I make a mistake and my credibility is lowered and yet you still hold Joseph Smith in very high regards in spite of his many blunders. He wasn't perfect and made his fair share of pretty major boo boos.
Even a prophet won't be perfect and will make mistakes, granted. But there are certain things that a true propeht should not get wrong. And one of those things might include translating ancient Egyptian papyrus scrolls.
The reason your credibility goes down is you claim your research as conclusive and definitive.
Saying ""Joseph lived and died claiming that he had been visited by Nephi!" is pretty strong language and rather misleading as he also did claim to be visited by Nephi.. One would assume you could make that claim only after a fair and balanced research of both sides.. As verifiable and credible information to the contrary is freely available.. one would assume sloppy or biased research to make that claim so boldly. Since you have not.. it makes me question your "fair" evaluation of other topics.
There are a few sources for JS personal writings including... "Papers of Joseph Smith. vol 1 and 2" and
"The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith"
Again... a fair evaluation of JS writing actually brings about much evidence for the actuality of the events to which JS testified.. things that simply cannot be discarded or explained away as coincidence. Just as there are issues that would cause one to question things and conclude otherwise.. What are you going to believe?? Thats up to you of course.. But by deciding to not belive in the faith does not negate the validity of the evidences in favor of those who do believe.
You said 'But there are certain things that a true propeht should not get wrong. And one of those things might include translating ancient Egyptian papyrus scrolls."
Here you have a very valid point. Of any I have ever heard, this presents the most valid case for x-members to question and criticise. But here again are many areas to consider that can easily cause one to question just how deep the JS understanding may have been.
An excellent point Ray. Even though the SAME ACTUAL PAPYRUS has been found that Joseph Smith translated from (and the Church has confirmed this itself, so it's not in dispute) - which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that either he lied/made up the Pearl of Great Price, or else magically translated a different story that every other Egyptian expert and translator (LDS and non-LDS) cannot see [and remember, the church is not challenging the validity of these experts] ... then we are left with the following:
Joseph Smith claimed to have properly translated the books found in the POGP from they Papryus scrolls.
These books then went on to be published and were seen as a supplement to the Old Testament in the Bible.
Years later, after going missing - the exact same scrolls JS used to translate are found, and are used to prove that everything in the POGP was made up and was never on the papyrus scrolls (which the church does not deny).
Even though it is all a known fraud, and the church does not have a leg to stand on - STILL the church PUBLISHES the POGP and the PICTURES IN IT with JS's translation - even though we know they are absolutely INCORRECT.
So in that sense, the church is lying, particularly to new members. The church does not tell investigators or converts about the papyrus scrolls and how they were found and how they are 100% DIFFERENT than what JS claimed ... no instead the church misleads ppl into believing that those pictures are what it claims they are, and that the papryus was translated correctly and is no longer in possession by the church. They never even mention the former part of the tale.
So yes, this is only ONE EXAMPLE of proof that Joseph Smith was a fraud, lied, and that church has covered it up and continues to lie today (misinforming the public), OR AT THE VERY LEAST [if you want to argue some ridiculous tale or rationalize] the church KNOWS of the controversy and purposefully with-holds the information from converts, investigators and in fact almost every single member that does not find out about it on his/her own.
So that's just one reason why ex-members leave the church. That and a plethora of other evidence, findings, and proof of church fraud, lies, cover-ups, misinformation, etc.
I can now see where you might have misunderstood what I was saying. I meant that Joseph claimed that it was Nephi who told him about the golden plates, not Moroni. If there is proof that Joseph also claimed Moroni visited him in in that single event, then I humbly admit that I stand corrected.
However, that raises another question? Why would Joseph Smith tell of two different messengers for one single event, that is, the revelation of the buried golden plates?
I am aware that Joseph Smith claimed to see Nephi, Moroni, and others on various other occassions. Does that clear it up?
But, like I said, this issue is hardly a testimony breaker. We should spend our time talking about more important issues.
Galatian,
Yes, the discovery of the Book of Abraham fraud was the defining moment in my exodus. This discovery was what caused my shelf to break. As I see it, it is solid proof that Joseph lied. There is no other rational explanation for it. I have asked TBM's at Mormon Discussions how they explain it and have not once received a reasonable reply.
Just as you said, the church actually acknowledges this issue and yet continues to go along with the old story, making no attempt to inform anyone. Shame on them. Because all they are doing is digging their hole deeper.
This is an issue that I would like you to expound on, McKay. I honestly don't understand how you can be aware of this and still believe, or at least hold him in the high esteem that you do. I am now the one who is sincerely seeking some understand here. Thanks
Ray.. if you would like to delve into the BOA.. rather than make assumptions, I first would appreciate if you could list the sources you have read or view as credible and definative on the subject... and your main areas of concern on the subject. This will help define a context and keep from going off on tangents.
Ray... I have another question for you.
What.. if anything, would have to happen in order for you to change your mind and believe the LDS faith... Not that I have the motive to do so.... this is just a curiosity... In other words, if you were able to decide the terms and conditions to be met for you to believe... what would they be? Or would you just never believe it period?
Sorry if my comments have been scattered and unclear. A lot of my comments, to be perfectly honest, are coming from memory from readings a year ago, so again I apologize. Since I am in school, I don't have the time that I did a year ago, to read and research.
I will speak for myself when I say that when I began to discover the issues and problems with the church, my first impulse was to defend them, deny them, or just pass them off as lies. I truly believed it was true and I was disappointed (but also relieved) when my moment of truth came. So please understand, as I am sure you do, that we didn't just say to ourselves, "Gee, I sure wish the church wasn't true so I could do whatever I want..." Then we went about to find whatever fault we could.
I was just telling my wife two days ago that, yes, there is a chance that I could return to the LDS church. That is, if the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me personally and told me that it was true and that I should devote my life to it. I know it sounds a little extreme, but I figure that if the religion is built by god, then it should be revealed by god. Man has so many confusing ideas. Here we are debating a certain issue and looking at the same evidence. You intrepret it one way and I intrepret in another. Obviously, one of us is wrong no matter how strongly we feel about our respective positions. So to trust man or even my own feelings is not a very wise thing to do when deciding the truthfulness of spiritual matters. And yet, what else am I supposed to do unless diety points me in the right direction? Obviously the chances of being visited personally by Jesus Christ are very slim, even if he is a god in heaven. The chances are even slimmer if he is just a myth. So there is a chance, albeit not a very likely one. If it came directly from god, I would know for sure that it was true, with no doubts.
If god has a special purpose for me, then he should reveal it to me. If I receive no such revelation, then I can only assume that there is none, or that my own best judgement is what I should be following.
I try to avoid making assumptions but obviously, I make them sometimes anyway. By assumptions are you talking about the 'Nephi vs. Moroni' discussion? If so, I apologize about all that. Did my last comment help clear up that misunderstanding? Otherwise, I'm not really clear what you mean by that and what you are accusing me of. Can you be a little more specific?
Here is one assumption that I admit I made, but it was based on pretty good logic... Joseph Smith died 1844. First edition Pearl of Great Price published 1851, 7 years after Joseph died. First edition PoGP says that Joseph was visited by Nephi on the night of Sept 21, 1823. Since this was published after Joseph's death, it is logical to assume that Joseph died claiming to have been visited by Nephi, not Moroni. If there were opposing stories that early on, 'Nephi vs. Moroni', then Joseph's credibility would have nearly been eliminated. So it is logical to assume that the 'Moroni' story came later.
As far as listing my sources, I will be happy to do that as far as I have the time to find them.
No, I don't really care to delve to deeply into the BOA; I am just seeking a TBM point of view so I can understand your paradigm better.
Here is a good video that will help explain the translation Book of Abraham being false. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNoxKcWFEPw
Why did everyone suddenly stop responding? McKay, if you're done, will you at least let me know? M.A.?
No, Samuel is just censoring his blogg now.
Maybe his real last name is "McCarthy"??
sorry - weekends busy - no time!!!
M.A.
ps - very interested in your last comment - will write next week
Im here.. very busy weekend.
Should I continue here or on the current thread?
Dude, at this point it doesn't really matter. It is obvious that we are not going to get anywhere. I'm tired of debating and I am especially tired of TBM jerks (not you McKay) who continue to throw around their condescending bull shit. If the church is true and the people are so happy, why do they turn into snarling wolves when defending their true faith?
McKay, I have the upmost respect for you because you have never done this to us. Sadly, there are only a handful of TBM's who I can honestly say that to.
I am not here to debate anymore. I will answer questions for a sincere seeker, but I am beyond the point of no return and therefore have no need or desire to continue a debate.
Sorry to just shrug you off like that, but this TBM jerk (probably still Jose) who keeps on insulting all of us has driven away all of my patience. I'm usually a 'lets-get-along' type of person but I realize now that TBM's dont want to get along. They want to fight.
Have I not worked hard to calm every one down and get a good discussion going? Have I not forgiven insult after insult? This TBM is an embarrasment to the chruch, to Jesus, to himself, and to humanity.
I hightly doubt that you will ever leave the church, McKay and I know for a fact that I will never go back. So let's just call it a stalemate. I'm done debating.
Like I said, I will answer sincere questions, provide support to those who need it, and I will respond to a TBM in exactly the manner which he engages us first.
I could tell from you last posts you were getting very frustrated... I understand you don't wish to debate. No problems here... I wasn't trying to get you to change your mind anyway, just explain my perspective.
I carry no judgments or resentment.. and I will probably stick around (even though Sam does not like me at all) as I find the expressiveness here to be somewhat intriguing.
Again... I am sorry to anyone on this site if they have experienced any abuse or unfair treatment in the church..I am sorry to say it does happen. You seem good and sincere, and ultimately I would only like to base my judgments on a persons personality and character rather than professed religion.
McKay,
Yes, I was a little frustrated and upset when I wrote that last comment but I stand by what I said. I feel like I need to focus my energy and attention elsewhere.
No hard feelings and my respect for you is only increased. There will always be something that we disagree upon, but I have never, once felt like you have judged me wrongfully.
My wish is that someday, all TBM's can be like you. Please feel free to join us in the next section.
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