I've taken the time over the last week, to confront a couple more missionaries or volunteers, or whatever they hell they are, over at Mormon.Org. The one I just talked to, was a complete asshole and just cut me right off, when I accused him/her of lying, which they were. Here is a link to the other chat I had, in case you missed it.
Gee, wouldn't a representative of Jesus Christ be kinder and more loving and want to see why I thought they were lying and then express to me why they weren't lying, despite all of the evidence showing otherwise? I guess not!! By the way, the name of the person I was talking to was Adrian. Anyone else have a run-in with the friendly Adrian?
How much longer will this charade last(the cat's out of the bag dumb asses), as they must be getting bombarded by ex/anti-Mormons every single day. How many real people are actually going there to talk to them.
It must be the same bullshit day after day, being confronted with the shocking truth, then not answering our questions and telling us to read the Book of Mormon; because if it's true, Joseph Smith was a Prophet, the church is true and nothing we are asking them even matters, which is exactly what they tell me and everyone else that ventures in there.
Anyway, I'll post the 2 transcripts below so that you can all read them. The first one is about Dallin H. Oaks saying that they can't Ever criticize their leaders, even if the criticism is true and I then worked in Mountain Meadows Massacre and his admission that "without a doubt" Mormon leaders committed the slaughter.
The second one is about how they claim they don't condemn other religions, while openly condemning them from the First Vision forward, especially in the Book of Mormon. Adrian actually denied it again, right in the chat...OOPS!!
These guys know they are lying, when the truth is so obvious and clear; but they just think we are all idiots and will easily believe their den of lies and want to join the cult tomorrow.
Also, the Mormon Hierarchy has disabled the cut and paste option that used to be there in the chats, so now, all you have to do, is go up to File and click on Save as, and save it as a text file. You will have to do some editing, but at least we can still post our conversations with these brainwashed Mormons, for all the world to read.
Conversation #1:
Speak With a Missionary-Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.
Addie: Hello! What can I do for you today?
Samuel: Yeah, I was curious to know more about the Mormon faith, after watching the PBS documentary called the Mormons.
Addie: Yes. That was an interesting program. What were some of your questions/concerns?
Samuel: Well, I was wondering if you are ever able to criticize your leaders and if you are punished when you do? They talked about all of the intellectuals that were excommunicated for speaking out and that is very troubling to me. So, are you allowed to criticize your leaders, especially the Apostles or Prophet?
Samuel: From what I've discovered, Dallin H. Oaks is one of your Prophets and he said the following:
Samuel: Sorry, go ahead and then I'll post the quote by Oaks
Samuel: Are you still there? (I'd waited like 5 minutes with no response at all and there was at least a 2 minute gap after almost every question I asked them.)
Addie: We believe that when a prophet speaks he does so by revelation and speaks the word and will of the Lord. The members of our Church sustain our leaders, which means committing to support them in their decisions. Also,
Samuel: So, they can never EVER be wrong? They are perfect and infallible? Aren't they imperfect men, just like any other man? That's what I've always believed, that no one is perfect...
Addie: in that process, they have the opportunity to voice objections and oppositions to those leaders. However, there is a difference between voicing objections and speaking against established doctrine
Addie: Prophets are not perfect.
Samuel: So, you can criticize them publicly, if you feel they are wrong or out of line, without any problems?
Addie: However, when they speak as directed by revelation, which is not everything they say, we believe it is the word of God
Samuel: If Prophets are not perfect, then anyone should be able to criticize them in my opinion, including Mormons themselves, right?
Samuel: How do you or does the world know when they are speaking by revelation or just as common men that make mistakes?
Addie: We are encouraged to pray about their words when they speak. Always, they invite us to know for ourselves and asking the Lord if what they speak is the truth. They never ask us to blindly obey.
Addie: Also, they will usually inform us of their opinions
Addie: For this reason, I personally have never found reason to criticize them
Samuel: So, let's say that they are not speaking by revelation and say something that isn't true? Can you openly criticize them for it with no fear of punishment?
Samuel: So, it's all based on what someone feels, whether it's true or not? What if you feel it's revelation and someone else doesn't?
Samuel: They don't ask you to blindly obey? But what if you pray about what they've said and you feel that it's wrong? Then what? Is that a problem?
Addie: When prophet is speaking by revelation, they make it clear that revelation is the source.
Samuel: Here's my question again; if you feel, after praying, that the Prophet or Apostles are wrong in what they are saying; can you openly criticize them for it without being punished?
Samuel: Do they allow you to speak your mind, even if it's against what they are saying? You said they aren't perfect, therefore they could screw up and make mistakes, teach false things, etc, right?
Addie: Why would you want to be part of the church if you feel that the prophets and apostles are wrong?
Samuel: Well, you earlier admitted that they aren't perfect, therefore they could be wrong. Either they are perfect and infallible or they aren't, right?
Addie: I know, from personal experience that these prophets are men of God. I trust their judgment and accept that they are not perfect. But I believe that I can trust in the counsels that God gives to them.
Samuel: I'm just trying to understand this, I really am. I have a lot of friends that are Mormon and they seem to blindly obey, saying that their leaders can never make a mistake or lead them astray in anyway and that if they try, God will literally remove them, is this true?
Addie: The most important thing that we can do is to seek
Samuel: But you still haven't answered my main question; can you criticize them, ever?
Samuel: even if they are wrong?
Addie: God's guidance through prayer to know if the prophets are acting according to the will of God.
Samuel: By admitting that they are human, they can make mistakes and can you then state openly how you feel about those human mistakes and errors, thus criticizing them?
Samuel: So, you do follow them blindly?
Samuel: Why pray to understand them or know what they are saying is true, if they can't ever teach anything wrong? It seems very redundant to me to pray about something that you already know can't possibly be wrong, ever?
Samuel: Look, here's the quote from Oaks:
Addie: Samuel I'd love to answer your questions, but it's tough to answer four at a Time.
Samuel: "It's wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true."
Addie: Can I answer them one at a time?
Samuel: 4 at a time? I've been asking you the same exact question over and over, without you being willing to answer it. Again, can you openly criticize leaders of the Mormon church? I'll answer it for you, since you refuse to, and the answer is...no, because Dallin H. Oaks says you can't, even if the criticism is true and that's what troubles me greatly as an investigator and someone trying to learn more about your church.
Addie: I'm glad that you've got sincere desires to learn.
Samuel: I consider myself to be an intellectual and inquisitive person, therefore not being able to ever object to anything these imperfect men say would be hell for me and would take away my freedom of expression and thought.
Addie: One thing that Jesus taught us in Matthew Chapter 6 is that we are not to cast judment on others whether they are prophets or not. We can disagree with views that they have, but criticism is really not necessary; that is a form of judgment
Samuel: I found that comment by Oaks to be so offensive, that I about fell off of my chair. It's like he thinks that he is God or Jesus Christ and cannot ever be criticized, even it the criticism is true. Those are not the words of man who sees himself as imperfect and that's not free agency or freedom at all.
Samuel: Would you ever state Addie that no one should ever criticize you, even if the criticism is true? Do you understand why this troubles me, when earlier you admitted that they aren't perfect, yet they say that they are beyond any criticism? It seems very contradictory to me in every way.
Addie: I understand perfectly. It's alright to express your concern with those whom you are concerned with. But that issue is between you and the person you disagree with. I welcome counsel and constructive criticism, but there isn't a point in pointing out.
Addie: weakness publicly whether prophets or not.
Samuel: Also, when talking about Mountain Meadows Massacre, Dallin H. Oaks said that:
"I have no doubt, on the basis of what I have studied and learned, that Mormons, including local leaders of our church, were prime movers in that terrible episode and participated in the killing."
Samuel: So, if you disagree with the Prophet or Dallin H. Oaks for example, can you go sit down with him and discuss it in private? Do they allow any member to meet with them?
Addie: They are always welcome to letters and other forms of communication.
Samuel: So, can you publicly criticize the Prophet with "constructive criticism?"
Addie: Can I ask, what do you understand a prophet to be?
Samuel: So, let me ask you this; Dallin H. Oaks openly admits that Mormon leaders killed all of those poor people at Mountain Meadows, but you aren't allowed to criticize them for the horrible murders they committed? According to Dallin H. Oaks, even if they murder innocent men, women and children, as he has now admitted to, you CAN'T criticize them...that's insane!
Samuel: He also hopes that the Lord will forgive these murderous Mormon leaders, when I believe murder is the unforgivable and unpardonable.
Samuel: I believe a Prophet is a man of God, who speaks and acts for God
Addie: Samuel, I don't feel that you're being very sincere about listening to theanswers to your questions. Those acts of those men who committed that horrible act were not endorsed by the prophet and when he heard of their acts he was very disappointed...
Samuel: Disappointed? 120 people were slaughtered by Mormon leadership and he was disappointed? I just don't know how to overcome these major concerns, as all my friends are trying to get me to take the missionary discussions and get baptized. That's why I'm here today, to see if I can resolve these concerns with you...
Addie: with them and they were excommunicated.
Addie: The real question you need to ask is to God.
Addie: If these men speak and act for God is there reason to criticize?
Samuel: So why did Oaks say that Mormon leaders were the "prime movers" and "participated in the killings?"
Addie: He was speaking of the local leaders, not of the prophets (so like a bishop). We do not consider such men to be prophets.
Samuel: So, it's okay to publicly criticize a Bishop then? Only John D. Lee was executed or excommunicated for those crimes and there were over 100 men committing the murderers.
Addie: Do you believe that God can answer prayers?
Samuel: Okay, let me ask you this, as I've been researching this Mountain Meadows tragedy....was John D. Lee guilty of murdering these poor people or not?
Samuel:I don't believe God has to answer questions that are already answered by the facts and truth, nor do I have to ask him if they answers are already obvious and clear.
Addie: I understand your concerns, but I know that all the questions you have will be answered by a much simpler question. "Is the Book of Mormon true?"
Samuel: What?
Samuel: Mountain Meadows Massacre is discussed in the Book of Mormon?
Samuel: I had no idea...
Samuel: What part?
Addie: If the Book of Mormon is true then the church is true and so are the prophets. That act was not an act of the Church, but of misguided men, and as such really doesn't effect a person's testimony of the doctrines of the church.
Samuel: I discovered that John D. Lee was also sealed to Brigham Young too, which is strange. Back then, men sealed themselves to each other in the Mormon temple?
Addie: If you find out that the Book of MOrmon is true you will still understand that this was a horrible act that should never have taken place, but you will also know that it was not an act of God, and that the church, which tried to stop it, is of God.
Addie: I would invite you to pray and ask god of if the Book of Mormon is true with a sincere heart. Will you do that?
Samuel: So, if the Book of Mormon is true, then the Mormon church is perfect and true and has never, ever made any mistakes and their leaders are infallible and can never, ever be criticized(even if the criticism is true), and they have never made any mistakes?
Samuel: Was John D. Lee a murderer?
Addie: Samuel, will you pray with a sincere heart?
Samuel: Answer my last question please
Samuel: I'm only asking you about John D. Lee, because I don't know if you are aware or not, that in 1961, the Mormon Hierarchy fully restored his blessings and forgave him for all of those awful and tragic murders he committed, of men women, children, even babies...and that also shocks me and troubles my soul deeply. Why would they do this?
Addie: I really don't know enough about that event to give you a difinitive answer, but I do know that this church is Jesus Christ's. If you will pray with a sincere heart and faith, you will find the same.
Addie: I hope you have a great evening.
Samuel: John D. Lee was the adopted son of Brigham Young, through their sealing together in the Salt Lake City temple and he was executed for his crime of mass murder and they've now forgiven him. Why?
Samuel: Praying won't answer these questions and you never told me if Mountain Meadows is discussed in the Book of Mormon, as you seemed to indicate.
Samuel: Do you not care at all about facts or evidence?
Samuel: So, is the Mormon church the one and only true church on earth?
Addie: I care about the spirit of God. I know the Book of Mormon is true and as such, I know that the Church of Jesus Christ is the only true and living church that is guided by God himself on the earth. If you simply find that out the other questions won't...matter anymore.
Samuel: Is my church really an abomination, with false doctrines and corrupt professors, as Joseph Smith clearly indicated. You are the only people on earth that have the truth? Everyone else is guided by Satan?
Addie: Please pray. I know you'll get an answer.
Samuel: The other questions won't matter anymore? Are you serious?
Addie then cut me off and abruptly ended the conversation, refusing to answer any of my questions, insisting that the only thing that mattered, was the Book of Mormon and that "If you simply find that out that it's true, then the other questions won't matter anymore."
Now, those are the true fruits of Mormonism folks. Facts, truth, logic and reality mean nothing and all that matters is that you believe the Book of Mormon is true, end of story, if it's true, it's all true, Joseph Smith was a Prophet and the church is true, and nothing else matters.
Conversation #2:
Speak With a Missionary-Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.
Referral Support: Hello, My name is Adrian how can I help you?
Mike: Hey Adrian, where are you at?
Mike: Are you an actual missionary from the MTC?
Referral Support: were are in Utah
Mike: I figured that, but are you a student, a missionary, or what? I've heard that
the folks on here are from the MTC or BYU?
Referral Support: I am a member of the Church.
Mike: Uh yeah, I figured that too...I mean what are the odds that the Mormon church would put somebody on here that wasn't even a Mormon? So, I guess you can't tell me what you are, if you're a missionary, student or whatever, which is fine.
Mike: I just wondered where I was talking to, if you were in Salt lake, Provo, etc, but obviously you aren't allowed to share that information with the public.Well, hopefully you can help me out anyway and will be more forthcoming on my other questions...
Referral Support: you are correct, I am not to share that kind of information.
Referral Support: I will do my best to answer yor questions
Mike: Sounds a little paranoid to me, since it was just a general question, but okay, hopefully they'll allow you to speak freely regarding other things.
Mike: I've always heard how secret the Mormon church is, especially regarding the temple, and I guess it's true.
Referral Support: Ok mike , I dont want to give you information about myself that is all
Mike: Anyway, I've been Catholic all my life and since moving to Utah, I've become interested in learning more about Mormons
Mike: Yeah, because I might track you down, right? LOL
Mike: whatever man
Mike: But I've read in Mormon Doctrine, which was written by one of your Apostles and also I've been reading in the book of Mormon
Referral Support: I dont want. it is simple , I am not goint to ask about your personal information.
Referral Support: ok
Mike: and it looks like you guys have really issues with Catholics or any other religion
Referral Support: we dont
Mike: Looks like we got off on a very bad foot
Mike: You don't?
Referral Support: I was catholic
Referral Support: all my family is catholic, I love them
(For some reason at this point, we were suddenly disconnected. I quickly logged back in and happened to get Adrian again and so we continued on with out conversation for a little while longer. Adrian had no idea what happened and it certainly wasn't anything I did. It must have been that Mormon God, intervening to help his servant and representative...LOL.)
Referral Support: Hi mike, I dont know what happend
Referral Support: sorry we got disconected
Mike: Yeah, me either...it just disconnected...I thought you hung up on me
Referral Support: no I didnt
Referral Support: ok , so do you have some questions
Referral Support: ?
Mike: Anyway, like I was saying, it looks to me like you guys have serious issues with Catholics or any other religion
Mike: Maybe you can help me understand somethings
Referral Support: okay
Mike: First of all, do you believe that your church is "the one and only true church" on the planet earth?
Referral Support: yes I do.
Mike: I believe the First Vision of Joseph Smith says that Jesus said, that all other churches are abominations with corrupt professors(preachers) and wrong doctrines, or something like that...
Referral Support: they are not guided by God.
Mike: So, if you have "the one and only truth", what does that say about my religion and the religions of most of my friends and family? Why do we have to become Mormon?
Mike: So, you are telling me that my religion is not guided by God? By what authority do you tell me this?
Mike: You realize that's offensive, right?
Referral Support: well, that is what I believe (No apologies of course)
Referral Support: dont take offence on that
Mike: It's funny how Mormons and your leaders always say that they never cut down any other religion...but you clearly do, by saying that you have the only truth on earth and that all the rest are abominations, corrupt and wrong.
Mike: Yeah, but your church believes that everyone needs to be a Mormon, in this life or the next, right? That's why you baptize dead people.
Mike: So, if Mormonism is "the one and only true church" on earth, then all the other religions are indeed false, right?
Referral Support: We are the only true Church, I know that. we have prophets and apostles that recieve revelation from God. All other Churches are full of great people, great feelings and amazing teachings , but lack authority to act in God's name
Mike: Do you believe that Satan runs my church and that it's of the Devil?
Mike: You believe this why? (This was an answer to their last comment)
Referral Support: no, I dont think so.
Mike: Aren't you just making the same claim that most religions make?
Referral Support: well you tell me what do you believe?
Mike: You believe in the Book of Mormon, right? Joseph said it's the most correct book on earth or something like that didn't he?
Referral Support: what do you believe about the LDS church and your church?
Mike: I don't believe that you have to belong to one particular church in order to be saved...I believe it's based on the kind of person you are and how you treat others, not whose church you call home.
Referral Support: well you said you were catholic, and that is not what they believe
Mike: Well, we are talking about what you believe and preach, not what I believe and in the Catholic church, we don't go around openly condemning other churches, calling them the church of the devil and abominations, whores of all the earth and Mothers of Harlots and we try to be kind to everyone.
Referral Support: but what is your doctrine?
Mike: So, you tell me what my doctrine is, since you are so well informed about it
Referral Support: you certanly believe exactly what you are criticizing from the LDS church
Mike: That unless you are a Catholic, you're screwed? That's what I believe?
Referral Support: the catholic Church to be the only true church.
Mike: Well, at least we don't preach that Mormons and all other churches are the church of Satan and the whore of all the earth
Referral Support: we dont prach about anybody else, We actually dont preach about others at all. (Can you believe that shit? I can't believe they actually said this? Now tell me that they didn't know they were outright lying when they made this statement!!)
Mike: Still there?(There was a very long pause before their last comment and this comment of mine, as they both popped up at the same time.) You believe in the Book of Mormon, don't you? Well, it greatly insults me and any other religion out there, yet your church claims that we are all evil
Mike: Saying you don't preach about other religions is an outright lie and you know it
Referral Support: Mike , is not a lie, and please remember what your religion claims before you criticize the LDS church for what it claims
1 Nephi 14:10.....Behold there are save two churches only, one is the church of the lamb of God and the other is the church of the DEVIL, wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the MOTHER OF ABOMINATIONS; and she is the WHORE of all the earth.
1 Nephi 13:34...wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that ABOMINABLE church, which is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, saith the Lamb--I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.
Referral Support: Take care
Mike: Where are you going?!! I wasn't done...
Gee, wouldn't a representative of Jesus Christ be kinder and more loving and want to see why I thought they were lying and then express to me why they weren't lying, despite all of the evidence showing otherwise? I guess not!! By the way, the name of the person I was talking to was Adrian. Anyone else have a run-in with the friendly Adrian?
How much longer will this charade last(the cat's out of the bag dumb asses), as they must be getting bombarded by ex/anti-Mormons every single day. How many real people are actually going there to talk to them.
It must be the same bullshit day after day, being confronted with the shocking truth, then not answering our questions and telling us to read the Book of Mormon; because if it's true, Joseph Smith was a Prophet, the church is true and nothing we are asking them even matters, which is exactly what they tell me and everyone else that ventures in there.
Anyway, I'll post the 2 transcripts below so that you can all read them. The first one is about Dallin H. Oaks saying that they can't Ever criticize their leaders, even if the criticism is true and I then worked in Mountain Meadows Massacre and his admission that "without a doubt" Mormon leaders committed the slaughter.
The second one is about how they claim they don't condemn other religions, while openly condemning them from the First Vision forward, especially in the Book of Mormon. Adrian actually denied it again, right in the chat...OOPS!!
These guys know they are lying, when the truth is so obvious and clear; but they just think we are all idiots and will easily believe their den of lies and want to join the cult tomorrow.
Also, the Mormon Hierarchy has disabled the cut and paste option that used to be there in the chats, so now, all you have to do, is go up to File and click on Save as, and save it as a text file. You will have to do some editing, but at least we can still post our conversations with these brainwashed Mormons, for all the world to read.
Conversation #1:
Speak With a Missionary-Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.
Addie: Hello! What can I do for you today?
Samuel: Yeah, I was curious to know more about the Mormon faith, after watching the PBS documentary called the Mormons.
Addie: Yes. That was an interesting program. What were some of your questions/concerns?
Samuel: Well, I was wondering if you are ever able to criticize your leaders and if you are punished when you do? They talked about all of the intellectuals that were excommunicated for speaking out and that is very troubling to me. So, are you allowed to criticize your leaders, especially the Apostles or Prophet?
Samuel: From what I've discovered, Dallin H. Oaks is one of your Prophets and he said the following:
Samuel: Sorry, go ahead and then I'll post the quote by Oaks
Samuel: Are you still there? (I'd waited like 5 minutes with no response at all and there was at least a 2 minute gap after almost every question I asked them.)
Addie: We believe that when a prophet speaks he does so by revelation and speaks the word and will of the Lord. The members of our Church sustain our leaders, which means committing to support them in their decisions. Also,
Samuel: So, they can never EVER be wrong? They are perfect and infallible? Aren't they imperfect men, just like any other man? That's what I've always believed, that no one is perfect...
Addie: in that process, they have the opportunity to voice objections and oppositions to those leaders. However, there is a difference between voicing objections and speaking against established doctrine
Addie: Prophets are not perfect.
Samuel: So, you can criticize them publicly, if you feel they are wrong or out of line, without any problems?
Addie: However, when they speak as directed by revelation, which is not everything they say, we believe it is the word of God
Samuel: If Prophets are not perfect, then anyone should be able to criticize them in my opinion, including Mormons themselves, right?
Samuel: How do you or does the world know when they are speaking by revelation or just as common men that make mistakes?
Addie: We are encouraged to pray about their words when they speak. Always, they invite us to know for ourselves and asking the Lord if what they speak is the truth. They never ask us to blindly obey.
Addie: Also, they will usually inform us of their opinions
Addie: For this reason, I personally have never found reason to criticize them
Samuel: So, let's say that they are not speaking by revelation and say something that isn't true? Can you openly criticize them for it with no fear of punishment?
Samuel: So, it's all based on what someone feels, whether it's true or not? What if you feel it's revelation and someone else doesn't?
Samuel: They don't ask you to blindly obey? But what if you pray about what they've said and you feel that it's wrong? Then what? Is that a problem?
Addie: When prophet is speaking by revelation, they make it clear that revelation is the source.
Samuel: Here's my question again; if you feel, after praying, that the Prophet or Apostles are wrong in what they are saying; can you openly criticize them for it without being punished?
Samuel: Do they allow you to speak your mind, even if it's against what they are saying? You said they aren't perfect, therefore they could screw up and make mistakes, teach false things, etc, right?
Addie: Why would you want to be part of the church if you feel that the prophets and apostles are wrong?
Samuel: Well, you earlier admitted that they aren't perfect, therefore they could be wrong. Either they are perfect and infallible or they aren't, right?
Addie: I know, from personal experience that these prophets are men of God. I trust their judgment and accept that they are not perfect. But I believe that I can trust in the counsels that God gives to them.
Samuel: I'm just trying to understand this, I really am. I have a lot of friends that are Mormon and they seem to blindly obey, saying that their leaders can never make a mistake or lead them astray in anyway and that if they try, God will literally remove them, is this true?
Addie: The most important thing that we can do is to seek
Samuel: But you still haven't answered my main question; can you criticize them, ever?
Samuel: even if they are wrong?
Addie: God's guidance through prayer to know if the prophets are acting according to the will of God.
Samuel: By admitting that they are human, they can make mistakes and can you then state openly how you feel about those human mistakes and errors, thus criticizing them?
Samuel: So, you do follow them blindly?
Samuel: Why pray to understand them or know what they are saying is true, if they can't ever teach anything wrong? It seems very redundant to me to pray about something that you already know can't possibly be wrong, ever?
Samuel: Look, here's the quote from Oaks:
Addie: Samuel I'd love to answer your questions, but it's tough to answer four at a Time.
Samuel: "It's wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true."
Addie: Can I answer them one at a time?
Samuel: 4 at a time? I've been asking you the same exact question over and over, without you being willing to answer it. Again, can you openly criticize leaders of the Mormon church? I'll answer it for you, since you refuse to, and the answer is...no, because Dallin H. Oaks says you can't, even if the criticism is true and that's what troubles me greatly as an investigator and someone trying to learn more about your church.
Addie: I'm glad that you've got sincere desires to learn.
Samuel: I consider myself to be an intellectual and inquisitive person, therefore not being able to ever object to anything these imperfect men say would be hell for me and would take away my freedom of expression and thought.
Addie: One thing that Jesus taught us in Matthew Chapter 6 is that we are not to cast judment on others whether they are prophets or not. We can disagree with views that they have, but criticism is really not necessary; that is a form of judgment
Samuel: I found that comment by Oaks to be so offensive, that I about fell off of my chair. It's like he thinks that he is God or Jesus Christ and cannot ever be criticized, even it the criticism is true. Those are not the words of man who sees himself as imperfect and that's not free agency or freedom at all.
Samuel: Would you ever state Addie that no one should ever criticize you, even if the criticism is true? Do you understand why this troubles me, when earlier you admitted that they aren't perfect, yet they say that they are beyond any criticism? It seems very contradictory to me in every way.
Addie: I understand perfectly. It's alright to express your concern with those whom you are concerned with. But that issue is between you and the person you disagree with. I welcome counsel and constructive criticism, but there isn't a point in pointing out.
Addie: weakness publicly whether prophets or not.
Samuel: Also, when talking about Mountain Meadows Massacre, Dallin H. Oaks said that:
"I have no doubt, on the basis of what I have studied and learned, that Mormons, including local leaders of our church, were prime movers in that terrible episode and participated in the killing."
Samuel: So, if you disagree with the Prophet or Dallin H. Oaks for example, can you go sit down with him and discuss it in private? Do they allow any member to meet with them?
Addie: They are always welcome to letters and other forms of communication.
Samuel: So, can you publicly criticize the Prophet with "constructive criticism?"
Addie: Can I ask, what do you understand a prophet to be?
Samuel: So, let me ask you this; Dallin H. Oaks openly admits that Mormon leaders killed all of those poor people at Mountain Meadows, but you aren't allowed to criticize them for the horrible murders they committed? According to Dallin H. Oaks, even if they murder innocent men, women and children, as he has now admitted to, you CAN'T criticize them...that's insane!
Samuel: He also hopes that the Lord will forgive these murderous Mormon leaders, when I believe murder is the unforgivable and unpardonable.
Samuel: I believe a Prophet is a man of God, who speaks and acts for God
Addie: Samuel, I don't feel that you're being very sincere about listening to theanswers to your questions. Those acts of those men who committed that horrible act were not endorsed by the prophet and when he heard of their acts he was very disappointed...
Samuel: Disappointed? 120 people were slaughtered by Mormon leadership and he was disappointed? I just don't know how to overcome these major concerns, as all my friends are trying to get me to take the missionary discussions and get baptized. That's why I'm here today, to see if I can resolve these concerns with you...
Addie: with them and they were excommunicated.
Addie: The real question you need to ask is to God.
Addie: If these men speak and act for God is there reason to criticize?
Samuel: So why did Oaks say that Mormon leaders were the "prime movers" and "participated in the killings?"
Addie: He was speaking of the local leaders, not of the prophets (so like a bishop). We do not consider such men to be prophets.
Samuel: So, it's okay to publicly criticize a Bishop then? Only John D. Lee was executed or excommunicated for those crimes and there were over 100 men committing the murderers.
Addie: Do you believe that God can answer prayers?
Samuel: Okay, let me ask you this, as I've been researching this Mountain Meadows tragedy....was John D. Lee guilty of murdering these poor people or not?
Samuel:I don't believe God has to answer questions that are already answered by the facts and truth, nor do I have to ask him if they answers are already obvious and clear.
Addie: I understand your concerns, but I know that all the questions you have will be answered by a much simpler question. "Is the Book of Mormon true?"
Samuel: What?
Samuel: Mountain Meadows Massacre is discussed in the Book of Mormon?
Samuel: I had no idea...
Samuel: What part?
Addie: If the Book of Mormon is true then the church is true and so are the prophets. That act was not an act of the Church, but of misguided men, and as such really doesn't effect a person's testimony of the doctrines of the church.
Samuel: I discovered that John D. Lee was also sealed to Brigham Young too, which is strange. Back then, men sealed themselves to each other in the Mormon temple?
Addie: If you find out that the Book of MOrmon is true you will still understand that this was a horrible act that should never have taken place, but you will also know that it was not an act of God, and that the church, which tried to stop it, is of God.
Addie: I would invite you to pray and ask god of if the Book of Mormon is true with a sincere heart. Will you do that?
Samuel: So, if the Book of Mormon is true, then the Mormon church is perfect and true and has never, ever made any mistakes and their leaders are infallible and can never, ever be criticized(even if the criticism is true), and they have never made any mistakes?
Samuel: Was John D. Lee a murderer?
Addie: Samuel, will you pray with a sincere heart?
Samuel: Answer my last question please
Samuel: I'm only asking you about John D. Lee, because I don't know if you are aware or not, that in 1961, the Mormon Hierarchy fully restored his blessings and forgave him for all of those awful and tragic murders he committed, of men women, children, even babies...and that also shocks me and troubles my soul deeply. Why would they do this?
Addie: I really don't know enough about that event to give you a difinitive answer, but I do know that this church is Jesus Christ's. If you will pray with a sincere heart and faith, you will find the same.
Addie: I hope you have a great evening.
Samuel: John D. Lee was the adopted son of Brigham Young, through their sealing together in the Salt Lake City temple and he was executed for his crime of mass murder and they've now forgiven him. Why?
Samuel: Praying won't answer these questions and you never told me if Mountain Meadows is discussed in the Book of Mormon, as you seemed to indicate.
Samuel: Do you not care at all about facts or evidence?
Samuel: So, is the Mormon church the one and only true church on earth?
Addie: I care about the spirit of God. I know the Book of Mormon is true and as such, I know that the Church of Jesus Christ is the only true and living church that is guided by God himself on the earth. If you simply find that out the other questions won't...matter anymore.
Samuel: Is my church really an abomination, with false doctrines and corrupt professors, as Joseph Smith clearly indicated. You are the only people on earth that have the truth? Everyone else is guided by Satan?
Addie: Please pray. I know you'll get an answer.
Samuel: The other questions won't matter anymore? Are you serious?
Addie then cut me off and abruptly ended the conversation, refusing to answer any of my questions, insisting that the only thing that mattered, was the Book of Mormon and that "If you simply find that out that it's true, then the other questions won't matter anymore."
Now, those are the true fruits of Mormonism folks. Facts, truth, logic and reality mean nothing and all that matters is that you believe the Book of Mormon is true, end of story, if it's true, it's all true, Joseph Smith was a Prophet and the church is true, and nothing else matters.
Conversation #2:
Speak With a Missionary-Thank you for taking the time to chat with us and for your interest in the Church. Please know that you are welcome to worship with us any time, request a visit from Mormon missionaries, order a Book of Mormon, or continue to browse our Web site to learn more answers to life's greatest questions.
Referral Support: Hello, My name is Adrian how can I help you?
Mike: Hey Adrian, where are you at?
Mike: Are you an actual missionary from the MTC?
Referral Support: were are in Utah
Mike: I figured that, but are you a student, a missionary, or what? I've heard that
the folks on here are from the MTC or BYU?
Referral Support: I am a member of the Church.
Mike: Uh yeah, I figured that too...I mean what are the odds that the Mormon church would put somebody on here that wasn't even a Mormon? So, I guess you can't tell me what you are, if you're a missionary, student or whatever, which is fine.
Mike: I just wondered where I was talking to, if you were in Salt lake, Provo, etc, but obviously you aren't allowed to share that information with the public.Well, hopefully you can help me out anyway and will be more forthcoming on my other questions...
Referral Support: you are correct, I am not to share that kind of information.
Referral Support: I will do my best to answer yor questions
Mike: Sounds a little paranoid to me, since it was just a general question, but okay, hopefully they'll allow you to speak freely regarding other things.
Mike: I've always heard how secret the Mormon church is, especially regarding the temple, and I guess it's true.
Referral Support: Ok mike , I dont want to give you information about myself that is all
Mike: Anyway, I've been Catholic all my life and since moving to Utah, I've become interested in learning more about Mormons
Mike: Yeah, because I might track you down, right? LOL
Mike: whatever man
Mike: But I've read in Mormon Doctrine, which was written by one of your Apostles and also I've been reading in the book of Mormon
Referral Support: I dont want. it is simple , I am not goint to ask about your personal information.
Referral Support: ok
Mike: and it looks like you guys have really issues with Catholics or any other religion
Referral Support: we dont
Mike: Looks like we got off on a very bad foot
Mike: You don't?
Referral Support: I was catholic
Referral Support: all my family is catholic, I love them
(For some reason at this point, we were suddenly disconnected. I quickly logged back in and happened to get Adrian again and so we continued on with out conversation for a little while longer. Adrian had no idea what happened and it certainly wasn't anything I did. It must have been that Mormon God, intervening to help his servant and representative...LOL.)
Referral Support: Hi mike, I dont know what happend
Referral Support: sorry we got disconected
Mike: Yeah, me either...it just disconnected...I thought you hung up on me
Referral Support: no I didnt
Referral Support: ok , so do you have some questions
Referral Support: ?
Mike: Anyway, like I was saying, it looks to me like you guys have serious issues with Catholics or any other religion
Mike: Maybe you can help me understand somethings
Referral Support: okay
Mike: First of all, do you believe that your church is "the one and only true church" on the planet earth?
Referral Support: yes I do.
Mike: I believe the First Vision of Joseph Smith says that Jesus said, that all other churches are abominations with corrupt professors(preachers) and wrong doctrines, or something like that...
Referral Support: they are not guided by God.
Mike: So, if you have "the one and only truth", what does that say about my religion and the religions of most of my friends and family? Why do we have to become Mormon?
Mike: So, you are telling me that my religion is not guided by God? By what authority do you tell me this?
Mike: You realize that's offensive, right?
Referral Support: well, that is what I believe (No apologies of course)
Referral Support: dont take offence on that
Mike: It's funny how Mormons and your leaders always say that they never cut down any other religion...but you clearly do, by saying that you have the only truth on earth and that all the rest are abominations, corrupt and wrong.
Mike: Yeah, but your church believes that everyone needs to be a Mormon, in this life or the next, right? That's why you baptize dead people.
Mike: So, if Mormonism is "the one and only true church" on earth, then all the other religions are indeed false, right?
Referral Support: We are the only true Church, I know that. we have prophets and apostles that recieve revelation from God. All other Churches are full of great people, great feelings and amazing teachings , but lack authority to act in God's name
Mike: Do you believe that Satan runs my church and that it's of the Devil?
Mike: You believe this why? (This was an answer to their last comment)
Referral Support: no, I dont think so.
Mike: Aren't you just making the same claim that most religions make?
Referral Support: well you tell me what do you believe?
Mike: You believe in the Book of Mormon, right? Joseph said it's the most correct book on earth or something like that didn't he?
Referral Support: what do you believe about the LDS church and your church?
Mike: I don't believe that you have to belong to one particular church in order to be saved...I believe it's based on the kind of person you are and how you treat others, not whose church you call home.
Referral Support: well you said you were catholic, and that is not what they believe
Mike: Well, we are talking about what you believe and preach, not what I believe and in the Catholic church, we don't go around openly condemning other churches, calling them the church of the devil and abominations, whores of all the earth and Mothers of Harlots and we try to be kind to everyone.
Referral Support: but what is your doctrine?
Mike: So, you tell me what my doctrine is, since you are so well informed about it
Referral Support: you certanly believe exactly what you are criticizing from the LDS church
Mike: That unless you are a Catholic, you're screwed? That's what I believe?
Referral Support: the catholic Church to be the only true church.
Mike: Well, at least we don't preach that Mormons and all other churches are the church of Satan and the whore of all the earth
Referral Support: we dont prach about anybody else, We actually dont preach about others at all. (Can you believe that shit? I can't believe they actually said this? Now tell me that they didn't know they were outright lying when they made this statement!!)
Mike: Still there?(There was a very long pause before their last comment and this comment of mine, as they both popped up at the same time.) You believe in the Book of Mormon, don't you? Well, it greatly insults me and any other religion out there, yet your church claims that we are all evil
Mike: Saying you don't preach about other religions is an outright lie and you know it
Referral Support: Mike , is not a lie, and please remember what your religion claims before you criticize the LDS church for what it claims
1 Nephi 14:10.....Behold there are save two churches only, one is the church of the lamb of God and the other is the church of the DEVIL, wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the MOTHER OF ABOMINATIONS; and she is the WHORE of all the earth.
1 Nephi 13:34...wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that ABOMINABLE church, which is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, saith the Lamb--I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.
Referral Support: Take care
Mike: Where are you going?!! I wasn't done...
==========
That was the abrupt end of the chat. I guess they can't handle "the real truth", can they? Hypocritical jackasses!!
I look forward to everyone's comments on these chats.
Samuel the Utahnite
That was the abrupt end of the chat. I guess they can't handle "the real truth", can they? Hypocritical jackasses!!
I look forward to everyone's comments on these chats.
Samuel the Utahnite
8 comments:
Samuel
It was interesting reading your conversations with the LDS missionaries ..... Somehow we know what the outcome is going to be everytime ... but a seed of doubt could have been planted and I know you fel better for it as well ! lol
I had my two missionaries sat right in front of me last week .I told them how disgusting the baseball baptisms of the 80's were , they agreed ! I asked them How is it that this is supposed to be the only true church , so why the practices of high pressure and deceptive baptisms !
The answer " we agree its wrong but they are just humans like anyone else. the Church is perfect but the members aren't "
So I replied then you are no different from any other church .You are not run by Jesus Christ because if you were then there would not be all this deception and mess created to the point of loads of Inactives running around lost in the system being used to inflate Bogus membership figures .
Then I told them that most missionaries lie ! I told them that some missionaries have told me they never had a testimony until a few months in after the mission. ( and to be honest they don't really have one , I don't think anyone knows what on earth its meant to feel like anyway ).
The point being when you arrive for the first time on the mission as missionaries you are asked to give your testimony . So that means some of you must be lying because you didn't get a testimony until some months in !
They saw the point in all this so what did one do ? he bore his stupid testimony to me !!
I was embarrassed for him .... Is the best they can do when they are shown to be a church of clowns and thats being polite .A more apt word would be 'Deceivers'.
The best any of us can do Samuel is to chip away at individuals and as more and more leave and put up websites and blogs the more all those phony Apostles will sweat under the collar !
This Months Ensign has an article on anachronisms in the Book of Mormon .Its saying that members should hold on to their feelings of truth and not the reality .Then it reckons that over the years ahaead the anachronisms will be answered one by one ! Thats a LIE !
Here are some answers ..
1 Horses are really Tapirs !
2 Goats are well ..... err deers perhaps !
3 Chariots are .......... nephites piggy back riding on the shoulders of other nephites ! ( My answer this one , even I could write for FARMS )
In fact in the book of Mormon Lamoni was astonished !
Alma 18: 10 Now when king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his chariots he was more astonished,
Why was King Lamoni more astonished ? Was it because FARMS and FAIR were right after all and they were tapirs really and he was wondering how on earth they would pull the chariots ? lol
The church is bogus , so it will not stand . truth always prevails and this church has no tangible foundation for any of its claims .Quite the opposite , they are all proven bogus , so we have nothing to fear , truth is on our side .How wonderful is real truth ! We can have dignity knowing we are being Honest and they aren't .
Just a reminder of The churches false teachings !
Elder McConkie
"There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren that we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" All I can say is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or George Q. Cannon or whoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."
It seems they got it wrong !!
2 NEPHI 28:15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their chearts, and all those who PREACH FALSE DOCTRINES, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, FOR THEY SHALL BE THRUST DOWN TO HELL!
Yes the exlamation mark is in the Book of Mormon ! it means what it says ! lol
So how come the church thinks Brigham Young's in Celestial Kingdom and that Bruce McConkie is going to judge us as the reresentatives of Israel ?
Not only that but Brigham Youngs and Joseph Smiths and all the others polygamy was a whoredom as well ...
Nothing makes sense and the only thing that does makes sense is that its all a man made farce that has drawn in unsuspecting members ...
Typical. That's all I have to say... and very interesting. Also scary. I pity those people. =/
Elder Jospeph's comment said it all. Keep up the good work! I hope you have been well. =D
- MMarie
Great chat log bro!
I too have spent several evenings messing with those unwitting chapel mormons... good times.
I set traps that they walk right into.
One day I asked about the MMM article posted on the lds.org website... the guy denied it until he went out and saw and read it! He was speechless and admitted he knew nothing about the MMM!!
I will set them up and then slamm them with quotes from previous leaders...
Thanks bro!
I am goin lie to someone and tell then i am catholic, when I am not, then I am gonna argue and lie out my ass to him about who I am, then i am gonna call him a hypocrite all the while I am lying to him calling him a hypocrite!!! LOL you guys amaze me... by their fruits you shall know them LOL
In my view you were the total and complete jerk here Mike. I don't say that lightly. You asked numerous questions and when the person from referral support attempted to break it down so that an answer could be rationally addressed you refused to discuss your questions. I can see why the person on the other end of the line saw that speaking with you was a complete waste of time. You didn't call with genuine questions but under false pretenses. Your conversation was not in goof faith and your demeanor was childish. Perhaps it would serve you to take a good look at your own dishonesty and dissembling in this conversation.
Two funniest quotes...
Addie: If the Book of Mormon is true then the church is true and so are the prophets.
Referral Support: dont take offence on that
Mike says- "I believe it's based on the kind of person you are and how you treat others, not whose church you call home."
Mike needs to work on that because Mikes coming across as a big huge gigantic hypocrite. I'm just sayin.
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